…good things come to those who wait!
appreciate as always the insight justincredible! didnt know the AC kicks off at WOT! (very cool of audi to do that!)
I would 100% garrantee jimmy knows more than joe. joe has no first hand experience jimmy done and as he said jimmy had to school joe on what parts he needed. When you get you parts just post a picture. I’m sure jimmy will know right away if you have the right parts.
Well, just learned that I could still make changes to my order if I want. Kincaid hasn’t shipped as yet so basically waiting on me for final approval and go ahead. So, Jimmy if you could shed some light on anything additional or different I might need or change etc. that input would be much appreciated. Given the distance between me and Kincaid having to send a part back or order a new one would really suck both time and $$$ wise!!
Before I get to the quoted posts below I wanted to post the picture of the front end of my car with the bumper off and point out a few things.
My goal was to get all the intercooler hoses as tight as possible to the core support and body since the bumper leaves very little room. There are a bunch of brass plumbing fittings (both straight connections and 90 degree elbows) to accomplish this.
Then the wrapping that is zip-tied around the hoses in front of the AC condenser is spark plug tube insulation since I needed a quick and easy way to keep the hoses from rubbing on the AC condenser and other places that could cause a leak plus it is decent heat insulation. If you go back up in this thread to the other pictures that I have posted then you will see the proper hose insulation (copper colored stuff) that I am redoing all the intercooler hoses with currently.
Next there is a manual three way ball valve above the oil cooler as well. I put it there so that I can pop the hood and adjust the intercooler water flow as needed but this is not possible on a B7 because of the grill usually so the RS4 guys will need to be more creative or get the electrically controlled version of the ball valve. In the blue handled lever position of the three way ball valve pictured it is allowing water flow through the Killer Chiller and the heat exchanger that comes with the JHM intercooler kit. If you can zoom in pretty far then you may be able to see the arrows pointing which was the water is flowing on the valve. This way I can benefit from the heat exchanger as I am driving around normally and then when I turn on the AC to cool off the cabin the intercooler water also gets cooled off a bit. From testing while in this configuration (ball valve flowing through both the KC and Hx and dual zone AC) I have found that the intake air temps get to a few degrees (4 or 5) below ambient to ambient to a few degrees over ambient depending on how much traffic I am sitting in and for how long I am sitting in traffic. When I said earlier that I saw 16 degrees below ambient intake air temperatures that was without the intercooler water flowing through the heat exchanger (so ball valve flowing through only the KC and dual zone AC). I think it is very important to specify which setting the three way ball valve is in and how many zones of AC are working so that I don’t lose anyone and confuse people.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4441/37294414102_795d26b8c0_z.jpg
I have a friend that I replaced their AC compressor and the new one failed. It was warrantied by FCP but he had to pay for a new one and then ship the old one back then they refunded him. Pretty typical experience in my opinion but still kind of hurts because he was out a few hundred dollars for a little bit.
Bunch to reply to here.
First it is very important that you tell Joe at Kincaid Performance that your AC lines were modified for the JHM SC kit and then confirm what size your AC lines are to be sure that you get the correct sized fittings. The modified AC lines that come with the JHM SC kit should say what size they are on the side of the lines. Mine were 13/32 for the high side/liquid line (which is bigger than stock) and I think 5/8 for the low side/suction line (which is the same size as stock). I am intentionally saying high side/liquid line and low side/suction line because that is how Joe describes them so that you can speak with terms that he understands. This was one hurtle that I had to deal with.
Then you need a solenoid valve for the high side/liquid line and I am not sure if you need the drag valve for the cold side/suction line or not. The whole point of the solenoid valve and/or drag valve is to shut off the refrigerant flow to the cabin and thus have all of the refrigerant flow through the Killer Chiller. By doing that the AC will not condensate water so I will not be kicked out of the drag strip for leaking water and it will really cool off the intercooler water.
I have both the solenoid valve and the drag valve just because I decided that I wanted to completely cut off the cabin refrigerant flow on both sides (high and low) for maximum cooling effect with the KC. That decision was made after I figured out that just the Drag Valve was not going to work for my car and I didn’t feel like mailing the thing back. Let me expand on that for a bit and hopefully I don’t lose you. By the way Justin, I don’t know everything but I am willing to work with people to try to resolve issues. This KC experiment was going to be a learning experience from the start so I figured that there were going to be hurtles.
Audi really made a Frankenstein car in multiple ways when they came out with the rear timing chain V8 S4 and they have just continued that same design into the FSI engines like the RS4. These V8s use a variable displacement wobble plate style AC compressor that works really extremely well when it works. However Audi just adapted the rest of the AC system from the A4 with an electric clutch style AC compressor to work. This creates an issue with things when trying to get the Killer Chiller system to manipulate the refrigerant flow with different valves, which is what you are trying to do with the drag valve or solenoid valve. The main cause of issues is the restrictor or orifice tube that Audi uses. A restrictor or orifice tube is a very simple, cheap, and easy way to split the AC system from high/hot to low/cold because it is a pre-set valve that limits refrigerant flow. A lot of other AC systems use an H block system as the way to switch between high/hot to low/cold parts of the AC system and it is very different since it is regulated either internally or externally. So Audi regulates the AC flow by the duty cycle of the AC compressor since the restrictor or orifice tube is a pre-set limit. Cars with an H block system usually keep the AC compressor running constantly and the H block regulates the refrigerant flow. I have seen a few cars that vary the electric clutch engagement of the AC compressor to better regulate the refrigerant flow in a H block system too. So it is very important to know which style system of AC is being used to say the least. That is some of the theory behind why just the drag valve didn’t work for me when I was testing the AC system in single zone mode and hopefully I didn’t lose you guys too badly.
On to the practical side of things that I noticed. When I was running the AC in dual zone mode (cooling both the cabin and KC) it would cool off things correctly. Then I tried turning on the drag valve to turn the AC into single zone mode for just cooling off the KC and the AC stopped working in the cabin like it should but the intercooler water temps and intake air temps started going up from no intercooler water cooling with the three way ball valve set to only cool through the KC (I was going for maximum cooling effect of course). I looked through multiple HVAC measuring value blocks to find out that the AC system pressure dropped back down to 5 bar with the drag valve on like as if the AC was off but the compressor duty cycle was still high so the compressor was still trying to build pressure. Turned the drag valve off and everything went back to working the way that it should in dual zone mode. Of course no error codes were thrown so that didn’t help. Joe had me do a whole bunch of checking about different things and nothing worked so I decided to try something simple. I went to Home Depot and got a brass plumbing ball valve in a close enough size fittings and installed it into the high side/liquid line to be able to cut off AC refrigerant flow to the cabin.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4497/37294414442_f848fa54ac_z.jpg
Refilled the AC refrigerant, started the engine, closed the ball valve, turned on the drag valve, turned the AC on inside the car, and found that the AC system pressure started holding at 10 bar. Normally with the AC off the system pressure is 5 bar and with the AC on in dual zone mode it got up to 17 bar earlier that day so I was a little less than half way to where I should be. That got the intake air temps down to 50 degrees F with an ambient air temp of 84 degrees F for a total cooling effect of 34 degrees F below ambient IATs! The Home Depot brass plumbing ball valve failed to hold the AC refrigerant system pressure after a few minutes because the temperatures and pressure exceeded what it is rated for but I proved my concept and Joe sent me the solenoid valve that I needed.
Firstly, thanks a bunch for the detail description and explanation, that made me realized that I have to call Joe tonight and run through the setup with him again to ensure we are on the same page. I did mentioned to him that my car had the JHM S/C installed but I never discussed my modified AC hoses with him and he never asked!!
Boy, all those pipes… ;D ;D ;D
Below, just some extracts from your post which I believe are vital for the system to function properly, please let me know whether I am on point!
[quote]In the blue handled lever position of the three way ball valve pictured it is allowing water flow through the Killer Chiller and the heat exchanger that comes with the JHM intercooler kit.
[/quote]
So this will be what Kincaid refer to as their standard Bypass Valve on their system for bypassing the HX
[quote]Bunch to reply to here.
First it is very important that you tell Joe at Kincaid Performance that your AC lines were modified for the JHM SC kit and then confirm what size your AC lines are to be sure that you get the correct sized fittings. The modified AC lines that come with the JHM SC kit should say what size they are on the side of the lines. Mine were 13/32 for the high side/liquid line (which is bigger than stock) and I think 5/8 for the low side/suction line (which is the same size as stock). I am intentionally saying high side/liquid line and low side/suction line because that is how Joe describes them so that you can speak with terms that he understands.
[/quote]
Got that figured out, thanks again!
My sizes are very similar to yours, 13/32(10mm) High Side/Liquid line and 1/2(13mm) on the Low Side/Suction
Will pass these details on to him as well
[quote]Then you need a solenoid valve for the high side/liquid line and I am not sure if you need the drag valve for the cold side/suction line or not. The whole point of the solenoid valve and/or drag valve is to shut off the refrigerant flow to the cabin and thus have all of the refrigerant flow through the Killer Chiller.
[/quote]
[quote]I have both the solenoid valve and the drag valve just because I decided that I wanted to completely cut off the cabin refrigerant flow on both sides (high and low) for maximum cooling effect with the KC. That decision was made after I figured out that just the Drag Valve was not going to work for my car and I didn’t feel like mailing the thing back.
[/quote]
[quote]I proved my concept and Joe sent me the solenoid valve that I needed.
[/quote]
So, if I understand you correctly, I will need an additional (3rd) solenoid valve (This is not the “standard” Bypass Valve referred to earlier), which will be the replacement for the Home Depot “TEST” valve you added to the High Side/Liquid line to solve the low pressure situation when the Drag option valve is turned on and Joe should add that to my order?
You are welcome. I didn’t think about the modified AC lines at first either but it is an issue since he wouldn’t know otherwise. It would help a lot of potential customers if he put a notation on the website saying that they should check the AC line size before ordering but whatever live and learn.
Okay I will go through those points and I had to get creative with the quote copy and pasting so that this came out as clearly as possible.
The three way ball valve that I have is the Mechanical 3-way Bypass Valve Kit (For HE) $79.95. https://killerchiller.com/products/mechanical-3-way-bypass-valve-kit
For a B7 style car I would get the 12 volt electrically controlled 3 way bypass valve kit since the grill makes it impossible to reach the mechanical one where I have mine mounted or you could mount the mechanical one in a different location that is accessible easily. Like maybe right in front of the intercooler itself but that means running another water hose all the way up to it as well. The only real downside to the 12 volt electronically controlled version is I think that Joe said that there is a long wait time to get it and I was kind of in a rush to get testing so I made the mechanical version work on my car.
By the way here is a link to the 12 volt electrically controlled 3 way bypass valve kit: https://killerchiller.com/products/12v-3-way-bypass-valve-kit
I wasn’t sure if JHM had changed the AC line size so that is why I had to be careful with what I said there. Good thing that you checked and sent him those details!
[quote]I proved my concept and Joe sent me the solenoid valve that I needed.
[/quote]
So, if I understand you correctly, I will need an additional (3rd) solenoid valve (This is not the “standard” Bypass Valve referred to earlier), which will be the replacement for the Home Depot “TEST” valve you added to the High Side/Liquid line to solve the low pressure situation when the Drag option valve is turned on and Joe should add that to my order?
[/quote]
I was wondering if it might get confusing with all the different valves so let me clarify that.
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The 3 way bypass valve kits (mechanical or 12 volt electronically controlled) go in the intercooler water hose system and is used for directing the intercooler water flow between the Killer Chiller and/or the heat exchanger.
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The drag valve goes in the low side/cold side/suction line of the AC system and is used to cut off the AC refrigerant flow on the low side/cold side/suction line of the AC system.
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The solenoid valve goes in the high side/hot side/liquid line of the AC system and is used to cut off AC refrigerant flow on the high side/hot side/liquid line of the AC system. If you can zoom in on the fifth picture down of my first post in this thread then you can see the solenoid valve on the side of the car above the supercharger. It is a black valve with a goldish bracket around it. The solenoid valve is the proper replacement for the Home Depot “TEST” valve. YOU DO NEED THIS VALVE IF YOU WANT TO MANIPULATE THE AC REFRIGERANT FLOW CORRECTLY ON THESE TYPES OF AUDIS!
To expand farther on the different valves: Both 2. the drag valve and 3. the solenoid valve will stop AC refrigerant flow to the cabin so while they are engaged you will have no cold air blowing inside of the car because you are instead trying to cool off the intercooler water as much as possible. That is easily fixable by disengaging the different valves for when you want to drive normally though. I know for a fact that you need the 3. solenoid valve to reap the beits of using the full AC refrigerant flow to the Killer Chiller to cool of the intercooler water as much as possible. But I still need to test if I need the 2. drag valve engaged in addition to the 3. solenoid valve to see if there is a noticeable difference in the intercooler water cooling through the Killer Chiller, more than anything I just didn’t want to go through the hassle of mailing stuff back so that is one major reason why I decided to keep it.
The 3 way bypass valve kits are used to control the water flow and are simple enough. I wanted to keep the heat exchanger since I know that the AC compressors fail but I wanted to occasionally get the beits of just the Killer Chiller cooling off the intercooler water so that is why I got the 3 way bypass valve. For example, usually with the three way bypass valve turned so that the intercooler water only flows through the KC I see a good 10-16 degrees F colder intake air temps than with the intercooler water flowing through the KC and heat exchanger at the same time. Some 3.0T B8/8.5 S4 and S5 owners (like Loe) that are using the Killer Chiller have removed the factory or aftermarket intercooler heat exchanger on their cars and are running just the Killer Chiller with the AC on all the time. That is fine for a car where the AC is reliable but I know that my AC compressor is going to fail every couple to half decade of years so I needed to be prepared for that.
In the paperwork that Joe sends you with the KC unit and other valves it describes how to get the maximum cooling effect from different things that he and some of his customers have tried. The three way bypass valve is one of the things mentioned and he says you usually get 10 degrees F colder IATs with the heat exchanger bypassed but I actually get slightly better than that. Doesn’t surprise me since it is better to be a little conservative and play it safe with quoted performance gains.
Then insulating the intercooler tank, intercooler water hoses, and the low side/cold side/suction line AC hoses is another example of how to maximize the cooling effects but I also wrapped up my intercooler as well because I could since it would actually help in this case. For example, it isn’t possible to wrap up the intercoolers inside of a supercharged 3.0T V6 because then no air could get past it but that is a different application.
Loe (3.0T guy) has actually switched to a different kind of refrigerant too. He is using the aftermarket industrial 12A in his car instead of normal R134A and I have not decided to do that yet. It was recommended by Joe (at Kincaid Performance) but I wanted to see what I could get out of normal R134A first since my system seemed to be working better than what he had seen with other cars. I figured that it was a good idea to be more specific with the names by identifying them better with () since their names are similar and easily mistaken.
Thanks for the clarification, I think I have a handle on everything now.
Will give Joe a call and discus to make sure he ships me the correct parts. As for the Drag valve I will just let him ship that as well seeing that I have already paid for it and as you mentioned, I don’t want to go through the trouble to re-order a part that I might actually need so he must just ship me the complete basket and I will sue what’s necessary.
As in your case I am also planning on keeping the HX for when I don’t need/want to run the AC and as mentioned it is there as a backup should the AC compressor fails.
That is excellent guys…amazing info here!!! once that is done and confirmed I ll just call the guy and ask " what you did for Rudy…the same for a LHD" …easy!
Well really good news.
I have been playing with the single zone cooling setup for the past few days. It appears that this drops the IATs down to about 30 degrees F below ambient. Which is a big improvement over the dual zone cooling setup, where I saw 16 degrees F below ambient. Just to be clear that is with the three way bypass valve set so that the intercooler water is only flowing through the KC. One more added beit of while running the KC in single zone mode is that it doesn’t drip very much water at all so I don’t run the risk of being kicked out of the dragstrip.
The first night when I tested this system it was 57 degrees F ambient and the IATs went below freezing. My Zadatech gauge doesn’t read below freezing (32 degrees F/0 degrees C) so it stopped at 32 degrees F. After playing with the system yesterday and today it would appear that I likely had IATs around 27 degrees F. For example today I was driving around late morning and it was 67 degrees F ambient so I was seeing 37 degrees F IATs.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4508/37505563331_9bdcaf1bee_z.jpg
The intercooler water is usually about 10 degrees colder than my IATs and I measured between 14-18 degrees F the night that the IATs got below freezing.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4504/37457611066_36501b3d60_z.jpg
Finally one cool picture of the brass intercooler fittings that are on top since they were freezing over with such cold water flowing through them.
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4492/37457610646_6cf33945fb_z.jpg
I am currently looking into industrial 12A refrigerant that Joe at Kincaid Performance recommended to drop the temps farther. Had to see what the single zone cooling would net me for performance gains before I decided to move onto a different refrigerant.
Loe saw a 11 degree F difference between normal R134A and Industrial 12A for finishing temperatures after a pull. Which fits what Joe at Kincaid Performance told me of a 10-15 degree F temperature difference between the two different refrigerants.
Good work Jimmy, thanks for all the testing and feedback on the KC system. This provides anyone else going down this route with some real data and results to benchmark against. I am sure the RS is going to be happy with those kind of temp’s. Love the frost on those Brass fittings ;D
You’re welcome.
Your RS4 will definitely enjoy the colder IATs. Especially since you live in such a hot climate if I remember correctly.
That picture of the frost on the brass fittings is one of the coolest pictures that I have ever taken. It should happen more often after I switch to the different refrigerant that should be here next week. I can’t wait!
Jimmy excited to hear more about this. Your car has to be really transformed now with the extra cool air and the addition of the KC unit.
It is a big difference Justin! The car just screams and takes off hard. Here is a video of a joyride from last night.
Gents question based on the above. Do you have any theoretical guess or practical measurement based on either a dyno (not sure it would be accurate) or on 1/4 mile timing to see the “gains” achieved with the KC?
Alternatively have you measured the gain in timing achieved by it before and after?
Yes I have a theoretical guess in the power gain but that isn’t worth sharing without practical applicational evidence to support it like from ideally dragstrip testing or less ideally dyno pulls. Not everyone shares the same view as me here but I would rather under promise and over deliver.
I have done the typical logging of channels 3, 20, and 21 to see the difference in ignition timing while in dual zone mode and it was pretty hilariously awesome! Currently waiting for the different refrigerant to do logging in the single zone mode.
I would say you wouldn’t really gain too much vs. epic ideal density altitude conditions on one dyno or dragstrip run
certainly you have the potential to see modest gains vs. a perfect conditions run…but it’s not likely to re-write the record books. Modest gains.
I think the killer chiller application will instead preserve your performance at or near that level for a LOOONG time on succcessive performance tests be they dyno tests or acceleration runs. It’s basically makes your intake air feel like late fall in the northeast. So even when it’s July and everyone else is gasping for density, you’re fine.
That’s my impression, happy to be shown to be wrong.
Keep up the good work jimmy.
If I had to put thought to it I would be in line with what sakimano said.
The KC unit won’t change the DA and the DA helps with the mass of air that is available for compression at any specific time. A good DA will always be important when it comes to going fast. The lower the DA the more dense the air charge is and more power is available.
With the KC unit the biggest part of the gain is the ability to keep intake temps stable keep temps low close to ambient or even below ambient. The hotter the intake temps there is diminished gains per tempiture heat increment.
Every FI system will sooner or later run into something called heat soak and that’s when the charge system has overwhelmed the cooling system and you have to wait for the cooling system to dissipate all of the heat and get the cooling system back under control With the KC unit you can fend off heat soak indefinitely if you want and you can rebound form high charge temps quickly that is where the gain is form with the KC unit.
Now you can get the intake temps below ambient with the KC unit and that is a big plus as the cooler the charge temps the better the power and efficiency… BUT only to a point. There is a point where the charge temps can keep dropping and you won’t get any more power improvements or the gain of power improvement will be less and less each temp change.
Overall the KC unit lets you have more control of your water to air system. with that said back to the original question. “gains” will really depend on the envirement and outside temps. The higher the outside temps the more benefits you will get out of the KC unit. and the more you put the car into a heatsoak condition in any temp the better the results will be from the KC unit due to helping you fend off heatsoak.
So you don’t really make any MORE power but you are able to keep the power you are making longer. and more consistant as the outside temps rise.
Some good feedback here, and after doing quite a bit of research on this subject I believe both Saki and Justin hit the nail on the head.
My understanding, and apologies for repeating what the previous learned gents have already said, is that unlike the addition of a Blower, Nos etc. this mod is certainly not going to gain you any additional HP but rather allow you to keep the 15-30 whp???, you normally would have lost due to heat soak and timing pull which is a big plus.
For me, apart from also attending to my Mod addiction ;D, I am hoping that the KC unit is going to allow the blower to perform at its optimum level most of the time with the added benefit of keeping the motor healthy.
On another note, I got notification that my unit has arrived in the country and DHL should deliver either today or tomorrow. Once I get going I will do a install thread or just update my Stage 1+ thread.
regarding the use of 12A gas, doesnt that damage the compressor? Also isnt it harder to come by?