Latest Trip to the Strip and Update on a Few Issues

B8 S4
#1

I’ve mentioned this in several threads recently, but since going to APR stage 2 and making two trips to the drag strip, I was pretty disappointed in my times. I made another trip tonight, and did some additional testing/logging. It’s not really apples to apples, but I have some ideas as to what is going on. A big thanks to Ron (Primetime) for getting me sorted out on the logging.

This will be a long post, but here are the cliff notes:

  1. My car is not the fastest car…
  2. The heat here in DFW is definitely effecting my times. Temp have been over 80 degrees, and DA has pretty consistently been between 2400-3200 on all my passes.
  3. The stock intake sucks balls. On most of my cars in the past, I have found the stock box to work pretty well, but I don’t think that is the case here.
  4. I am probably not the best drag racer as this is only my third trip all in the last 6 weeks or so.

The long version…
The last two times at the track, my car pretty consistently ran in the low 13 range at 105-106 MPH. My best time was a 13.06@106. Most times were more like 13.3@105. The times were about the same with or without launch control (1.9 60’). All runs were on 93 from two different stations. DA was 2400-3200 (interestingly, my fastest time was at 3200). Unfortunately, I did not log any of these runs.

After the above disappointing times, I did a lot of logging. Our findings were:
-The Air Mass was pretty low, IAT’s were not great, and boost was pretty low (14 PSI in most cases). I think Ron thought a lot of this had to do with the stock intake box. I am running the APR tube, and AWE filter.
-The car was also showing misfires on cylinders 2 and 4 in some cases, but not usually during high RPM runs. It seemed pretty random. The general consensus is that this is not a huge problem, but we’ll see…
-Max timing was in the 16 degree range, but we were seeing timing pulled up to 7+ degrees in some cases. This got a little better with different gas. I think the high temps here probably have something to do with it. Most logging took place at around 80 degree with a DA over 2000.
-No faults or other obvious issues.

I went to the track again tonight and made 10 passes. I had a mix of 93 and some Torco Accelerator for what should have been around 101 octane. I had mixed results when I logged with this mix last night, but I as down to 25 miles left when I got to the track and decided to make a pass with it. The results were awful. 13.5@103 (on my 100 map). I then filled up with 104 octane race gas. First 3 passes were not much better. 13.3-13.4 @ 104. Very disappointing. The car was also hanging on the 2-3 shift every time (without LC).

At this point I was going to try some other things. I pulled the stock intake funnels (leaving the box obviously), and interestingly my times dramatically improved (and I was hot lapping at this point with only a few minutes between runs). First run I went to 13.0 @109 without LC and had the 2-3 hang up. My next runs got better and better all the way down to 12.69 @111.58 MPH with launch control. I could have been the car adapting to the 104 race gas better, but air mass went up dramatically with only a slight increase in IAT’s. The only way I could get the car not to bog on the 2-3 shift was with launch control. The 3 runs I used LC were the only sub 13 second runs. Not sure what is going on as the last two times out my car only did this once on 15 or so passes (were I used LC half the time, and smash and go the other half).

So what to think at this point?
-The stock intake is a out. I have the CTS intake (Roc-Euro clone), but they have not been able to provide the right hardware to mount the heat shield. They sent me stuff that showed up today, but it’s still not right. I really want to send it back, but I am going to retap the mounting holes to make it work this weekend (they are going to refund me $100 for the trouble). I just ran out of time today before I had to leave for the track.
-I need to figure out what is going on with my AWE downpipes. The resonators were blown once before, and the car felt a tad slower. I have only had them back on for a few months, and it sounds like one is blown again. This could be effecting my power slightly.
-I am going to keep running the gas from this latest Texaco I am using. The timing pull is lower than what I have seen for the Chevron and Shell I had been using.
-Hope for some cooler temps, and keep logging to figure out why I am seeing the lower boost and higher than normal timing pull. Hopefully the intake helps here…
-Hope this 2-3 hang up goes away. I really had only seen this a few times before tonight. If it does not go away, I’ll try the APR DSG tune when it comes out. I tried my other maps to see if it was something with the 100 map, but it still hung up when I did not use launch control, and my times were obviously slightly slower.
-The car got faster and faster as the DA went down. I hot lapped 6 passes between 11pm and midnight when the track cleared out, and got faster on each one when I used LC. This tells me that having a CPS is not killing me at the strip (that was APR’s only suggestion when I talked to them).
-Overall, my car may be a tad slow, but the APR tune/maps seem to be doing what they are supposed to. I have never seen any bypass, and requested boost is where it should be- the car is just not making it. When I tested 93–>91–>stock maps tonight, the car got slower MPH each time. The only tall tell sign in the logs is lower timing on each, and then obviously some bypass on the stock map.

#2

Good stuff man…

Few things… As we have discussed the stock intake is a restriction especially once pullied… These cars need to be able to swallow air… No doubt the high temps/da hurts… Probably costing you .1-.2 in ET and a mph or two in trap… The thing that surprises me is the 2-3 hang up, I don’t think I’ve ever had that, definelty get the 1-2 occasionally but not the 2-3 so not sure what is going on there?

How much 93 mix did you have when you put in the race gas? Your timing probably went up a degree or two and you’ll see less pull especially if the iats aren’t bad but that probably wasn’t the case… Did you log any passes? If so I’d love to check them out…

Just glad you are testing and figuring this out vs going on vendorzine and crying like someone else over there… IMO, get the intake on, better da, race gas and no shifting issues you’ll be low 12’s like you should… Oh and glad to help anytime man!

#3

Thanks Ron. Maybe it was 1-2… It was late when I posted that last night. I’ll post a couple GoPro videos later today. I have logs for most of the passes; I’ll filter those out and send some to you.

I was down to 10 miles left, so probably had 1-2 gallons on 93 mixed with the Torco Accellerator. I only added 3 gallons of 104 so it’s very possible it took a few passes to get the timing down. Removing the intake funnels definitely made a small difference.

I am hoping the new intake is good for a couple tenths/MPH, as are some better DA’s. If I can get my car running better, it should low 12’s which I’ll take. It was crazy how the DA going down from 3000-2400 in the hour made a difference. In my 4 runs between 11-11:30pm the car knocked a tenth off every run and gained 2 MPH over those passes. Hot lapping, the car got faster and faster until they kicked me out. Not having the hang up helped too…

#4

I went back and watched the videos. The hang up was 1-2, and it happened on 5 of 7 runs when I went smash-and-go. It did not happen at all when I used launch control. I really wasn’t paying attention to it at first because it had only happened once before; I just knew it happened pretty early in the run. It was also really hot for those first 7 runs; over 90 degrees for all of them.

I also noticed that I had traction control on on my one really bad run (13.5@103).

A couple things to note:
-I actually made 11-12 passes.
-I won all but two. A 997 911 Turbo S (modded) put down an 11.4@124, and a new Vette ZR1 (modded) did a 11.9@129
-I beat up on several new 5.0 Mustangs (all modded), older and newer Camaro SS, 6.2 GTO, a RAM SRT10, and a 2nd Gen RX7.

Here are my passes from 11-11:30 when the car started going faster (#193):
http://i570.photobucket.com/albums/ss146/jran76/9DE86377-B4F0-4181-B55A-F3041192B921_zpsyz5ok5wu.jpg

#5

Run a few less psi in the tires… Its probably spinning off the line when not using lc…

#6

Very possible. I was running around 36 PSI all around.

One interesting thing about the hang-up is that every time it happened, the logs show the car revving to 7200, and the bypass valve opens for the one line at 7200. I’ve done a lot of logging, but not typically the WOT 1-2, but have never seen the car go over 7000.

I’m about to send you the logs… Thanks again for all your help. I wish I could give Karma 20x. I guess I need to make a quick 100 posts.

#7

Great job on logging! It’s a lot of fun trying to diagnose things.

I think for a stage II car, CPS is required. The car heatsoaks. It was noticeable on the road course. I did a log test once on the high way. Cruised around light on throttle and it showed my IATs were 10C above ambient. What I did was then do quick WOT accelerations from 40-65mph five times and my IATs’ rise above ambient more than tripled.

#8

I do believe the CPS will help, but I don’t think it is going to get me a full second or anything close. When I talked to APR tech support, that was their only suggestion, and I guess my point in all of this is that it is more complicated than just that. Albeit, the CPS will help in certain conditions.

Once the DA went down to the 2400-2500 range, I was hot lapping and did not have to wait in the staging lanes, and that seemed to make the biggest difference. My times literally got better by .1 second and .5 MPH on each of my last 4 runs within a 15 minute span (there was one run in the middle where the car hung-up and bogged a little so it was a slower run). You can see how close the timestamps are on the last 4 slips I posted above.

#9

I don’t know if any of this will help, but here are a few things to think about. I would like to say, whatever Ron says that might be different then what I say, I would lean more in the direction of what he says.

Let me address this:

  1. I mentioned this in another thread. Did you mix the Torco outside of the car in a separate container?

  2. VERY important You can’t mix or expect a mix to work if you don’t have less then 0 on the miles to empty. With 25 miles to empty you could have almost 3gal of gas in the tank still and a large amount of fuel is in the fuel lines. You have a non return fuel system, so even if you put good fuel in an almost empty tank it will take about 1/2 a mile before the old fuel is out of the lines.

  3. It might have taken several runs for the fuel to make it to the rail. Your MAF readings go up if the timing goes up. The air box is a serious restriction so, there might have been a good combination of both things.

Lastly the DSG shifts off several inputs, MAF is one of them. If the value is higher or lower then needed range you’re going to get a hiccup.

#10

Josh, 36 isn’t high really… I can usually run 44 - 40 in the summer and not spin even on a non prepped surface, ie the street… Lol. Go 2-4 lower in the rears… What tires and condition? I’ve seen several of those over revs on my cars logs and others… On the street I’ve hit 74xx rpms one time… I think it’s wheel spin but can’t prove it… I get it way less than you that’s for sure…

I’m on the iPad so I can’t do some things now but basically your pulling tons of timing and have high iats… Timing retard is present in both cylinders almost the whole run… High numbers as you’re aware which is basically killing you, and it think it’s the high iat/low maf. I think you have some of you LC/non LC labels wrong… LC is funny how it works… I’ll take a closer look in the morning and email any other thoughts… Have you replaced you plugs? Get that intake on and lower iats and will see what happens with timing pull… Will be neat to compare!

CV, thanks! I know drag racing and how to interpret what’s going on with this car, but I’m confident you know that and more importantly why so I’ll speak for the b8 guys please keep contributing to our platform!

His maf readings are way low and his iats are very high on these runs so in turn while timing is decent he has tons of retard… 8+ in some runs! Great points on the fuel…

Interesting the dsg reads maf values as an input, his logs show some higher and some lower values at other shifts where the car didn’t over rev so who knows if that is the cause? Thanks again for chiming in!

#11

There is some great insight in this thread, your not in good hands jran, your probably in the best!

#12

Thanks for the feedback, and your insight. I’ve learned a lot about this over the past month reading your posts.

I did not mix the gas/Torco out of the car, and I see that is at least a concern from your post in the other thread, and also from your full post on this. That’s not really an option for me, but I can see whey it would be an issue.

It makes perfect sense as to what will happen if the tank is not completely empty, and also that there is some residual gas in the rest of the fuel system even if it is. I likely had about 2 gallons of the (maybe poorly mixed) 93 and Torco Accelerator left in the tank. I was actually closer to 10-15 miles left on the readout by the time I filled up, which on my car is in the 2+ gallon ballpark. I did go out for a 1+ mile cruise after filling up with 104, but I could see whey even that may not be enough if I had a couple gallons of 93+ left.

At this point, I am going to stick with 93 for a while. I was really out to prove that the gas I was using was not causing the high amount of timing I am seeing pulled, and I think I have done that. I’ve tested 93 from three different top tier stations, a 93/Torco mix, and 104 race gas all with similar results in the knock/timing department; and maybe not exactly the same, but enough timing being pulled in all those scenarios to know there is more to it than the gas.

I was contemplating trying 93+Torco to make 100+ on my B5 and run a full-time 100 tune since I don’t drive the car much, but I have decided against that at this point. As mentioned, I don’t really have a good way to mix it out of the car. I am going to go with a WMI setup, and a tune specifically for that setup. I’m installing a 034 K04 kit as we speak, and I didn’t realize they had a specific tune until I talked to them a few days ago (I decided to ask when they released their plug-and-play WMI kit).

Thanks again for taking the time to post the gas related information. Good stuff (again, wish I could give some Karma here…).

#13

Thanks Ron.

Michelin PSS tires. Less than 1000 miles on them. Interesting point on the wheel spin. It does kind of look like that from the logs the way the RPM’s are all over the place for that short period time. It’s just weird, I had only seen this happen a couple times on the street, and once before in my 15+ passes at the strip. I say it went away when I used LC, but those where also my last 5-7 passes when the conditions were better…

It’s very possible I got some of the labels wrong on the logs. I tried working backwards from my slips, but the fact I missed a few runs likely threw me off. It’s pretty easy to see in the logs where LC was used because the accelerator holds at around 50% until you launch, but I wasn’t paying that much attention. I had some other logs that were all non-LC runs but somehow did not turn grouping on. So, while I can get an idea as to what is happening, it’s not all that useful so I didn’t include them…

At this point I am going to try and get the MAF readings up and IAT’s down. I hope the intake, maybe a CPS, and better conditions will do some of that. My hope is that the timing pull will go down, and maybe boost up a little. We’ll see. I’ll definitely keep you posted. Thanks again for taking the time to look at this.

#14

I just looked and after hitting 104 tomorrow, we should have some cooler weather next week. I am going to get the intake on, and do some late night logging in weather that will hopefully be upper 60’s or low 70’s.

#15

I wanted to say something real quick because I didn’t get a chance to read all of what you wrote. I know you’re deep into knowing the inside and outs of these cars and all the quarks, bells, bumps and boundless amounts of data. These guys really owe you a big debt of gratitude. I knew I was going to be just talking about the fuel so, I didn’t want to say something about the fuel that might have contradicted what you said. That’s why I felt it was important to say “if I say something different then Ron, just consider me wrong”

I don’t want to derail the thread here but, Ron maybe you or one of the other guys should start a master thread on the formula for success for these cars along with expected results. Maybe add the maintenance issues and concerns you guys run into. I think a master thread with expected results IE. 1/4mile times, per performance parts installed would really help show what parts you need to achieve what results. When you read, that the better half of two dozen stage X APR or GIAC guys went XX.XX@XXX mph with X and Y mods it should help build a better understanding of what these guys can expect. If they don’t see those results they know they need to look more into supporting mods, DA, fuel or maintenance.

jran76, great work on your part as well. Going through all the steps to look at everything and not just jump on the blame the APR tune bandwagon. Between the fuel, DA and the restrictive air box it looks like you’re getting to the bottom of all the concerns.

#16

CV, Thanks again and we appreciate your input! I think I’ll do just that when I get some time… I’ll start it at lunch and work on it for a few days and make a post… Hopefully, it helps some folks out!

#17

It makes perfect sense as to what will happen if the tank is not completely empty, and also that there is some residual gas in the rest of the fuel system even if it is. I likely had about 2 gallons of the (maybe poorly mixed) 93 and Torco Accelerator left in the tank. I was actually closer to 10-15 miles left on the readout by the time I filled up, which on my car is in the 2+ gallon ballpark. I did go out for a 1+ mile cruise after filling up with 104, but I could see whey even that may not be enough if I had a couple gallons of 93+ left.

For whatever its worth man i managed to do 2 quarter mile passes on 93 octane after my dash said 0 miles to empty. After that i did not want to run out of gas and look like an idiot so i put 2.5 gallons of race gas. I am curious how many more runs i could have made with 0 miles to empty on the dash, and curious when it says zero is there still a gallon left in the tank. Lets say if there is a 1 gallon still there and if i put 2 gallons of race gas, the blend is not that potent. 66% race gas only.

#18

I made it back out to the strip in similar conditions (HOT-98 degrees when I got there, and never got below 87). I let the car sit for about 45 minutes, and started making passes around 8PM (it was still mid-90’s when I started). The only change is the CTS intake.

All 93 runs were still around 13.2@107+. I did three passes, but all were in DA’s around 3100-3300. I gained about 1 MPH over my previous runs.

I made about 8 passes on the 100 octane map (running 104). The DA’s were between 2600-3000. The best was a 12.59@112.53 (in 3000 DA). That’s about 0.1 second and 1 MPH faster than my previous best. All runs were pretty consistent around 12.6-12.7@111-112.

A few notes:
*The highlight of my night was two back to back runs against a newer 2014 M5 (bone stock). I squeaked by him both times (0.1 and 0.01 seconds), but he had me in ET by 4-5 MPH each time. The owner came up and talked to me afterwards, and he was pretty impressed (and probably a little embarrassed). I watched him run several times, and he was consistently at 12.7@117+ all night.

*As far as the CTS intake, I was seeing 50-90 kg/h more air flow than my previous setup (stock air box, APR intake tube, and AWE filter). IAT’s were down between 2-6 degrees C. Both a little less than I saw on the street, but a slight improvement.

*Timing is still an issue for my car at higher RPM’s/WOT. On 93, I was only see max timing in the 12-16 range, and a lot of times on the low end of that. Knock/timing pull was around 6-7 degress a lot of the time, and as much as 8 degrees in some cases. There were some instances were it worked out to be 0 degrees. On race gas, I was seeing 19-21 degrees, and less knock/timing pull, usually 2-3 degrees; 4 degrees at the most a couple of times.

*This time when I switched over to race gas, I ran the car down to 10-15 miles below 0 on the DIS. I then filled up with 5 gallons of race fuel, and went out for about 5 miles of pretty aggressive driving before returning to the strip. I let the car sit for 15 minutes after this, and ran my best time on the first run out. So, as others stated, I really needed to get the gas as low as possible, and also drive it a little to get the 93 and let the 100 adapt.

#19

Hey bud last week I made 29 miles after my car said zero miles to empty. And it died completely. I just wanted to see how far it goes. Then I put the race gas. After it says zero you can easily drive 20 miles no problem. Great runs nevertheless! !

#20

Something is up with your pump file. You don’t gain 6 and 5 from just the race file. Might want to check that your 'pump 93 tune ’ isn’t stock, because that sounds like stock, and the Delta from tuned 93 to tuned 100+ file is usually half of that Delta so either your race gas file is amazing…or the pump isn’t working properly