Someone is promoting their new 2.75" full catless and 2.75" catback with xpipe on the forums, and recently showed before/after dyno numbers. He’s on stock tune.
Stock downpipes with precats removed (but main cats intact) are 2.5" but neck down to 2.36" at the end, including the main catalytic converter in place downstream. He switched this to a full catless 2.75" setup…so a big gain in diameter, and of course no cats was the change there.
Milltek catback is 2.5" with no x-pipe and is a pretty terrible design (but sounds great). He switched to a full 2.75" catback with an xpipe.
He dyno’d 344 whp and 277 wtq stock/milltek.
So…what do you think he should gain with those reasonably major changes to those two exhaust components (and no other changes to the car)?
Answer: 14 whp and 21 wtq.
Seems kinda normal…maybe it’s just me? Of course quattrofail is going crazy over the news . They don’t seem to understand that they need to look at delta lol.
Maybe ben will stop in here to discuss it and see if he’s happy with it. The absolute numbers sound big (358/298) but when you see the stock baseline of 344/277 which was pretty high to start it’s pretty much what you’d expect. Should pick up some more with a tune of course.
Saki, one change, actual result was 355/298 so delta was 11whp 21wtq.
I know it will make much more with a tune, I actually want to try the JHM tune again when they have it available and see what kind of gains I can get.
If I can find somebody in the bay area with a pair of stock downpipes that I can test with, I will try to make it back there this week with stock catback and downpipes so I can get actual baseline numbers.
I am trying to keep the weather the same and drive the car the same before the dyno. At the dyno day it was about 60F outside however yesterday it was 75F. I am not sure what it was like in the dyno room or if the numbers were correct. I will call and ask Monday.
Either way, I am very happy with how the exhaust turned out, it sounds pretty good, feels awesome up top, and has good low end torque. Unfortunatly we didn’t have time to swap between my exhaust and JHM exhaust and get back to 034 by our 4pm appointment, one of the O2 sensors was seized on Micks car. Maybe next time he comes down here. The JHM one has a little better tone to it, but I think that is because it is resonated and the mufflers have broken in.
Please explain how this exhaust, which you have never seen photos of is “ripping off” the JHM design? We CAD designed, flow modeled, built and tested this exhaust before ever seeing a JHM system.
When we finalize it, you will see the conparison photos side by side and you can see that out exhaust is infant completly different, downpipes and catback, only part that is the same is the mufflers because the Sebring units are very high quality at a good price. The production ones will not be the same mufflers, but will be similar 3" straight through units.
you have pictures of a JHM exchaust in your picture folder where your obvioulsy looking at the layout and then you have a design that looks just like the JHM unit.
Look in the end a exhaust is an exjhauist. ITs not like your taking the JHM exhaust and getting it bent and then rebranding it as yours.
You have never done any of what you said before you saw the JHM exhaust. That alone is suspect to your claims
You are right, I should say before I ever saw one in person. I have looked at Photos of the JHM exhaust as well as photos of many other exhausts. The only reason I uploaded them there is so I could keep track of them as they were emailed to me and not hosted elsewhere.
I believe you will see that our exhaust is not a exact, or even close copy of what JHM did, both of our designs have similar elements, but then so does every exhaust. The exhaust we were taking the most inspiration on design from was the Fast Intentions S4 exhaust, it seemed to have the straightest flow, however after a great deal of trial and error on the computer, we decided on our final design for the downpipes and mid-section with the rear section having to be designed/made on the car since we didn’t couldn’t accurately model the subframe and diff for the purposes of our model.
if your exhaust is a replica of the JHM exhaust you’ll get sued and everyone will see it and lose respect for you, so I’m sure you wouldn’t do that. Maybe you borrowed some of their design philosophy as a starting point (2.75, x-pipe). One could also say that JHM borrowed MTM’s philosophy as a 2.75" starting point but JHM did their own testing. , but hopefully you’ve done your homework behind the scenes like they did.
All it will take will be a photo comparison to end this debate lol.
I don’t get why guys on quattrofail are comparing their dyno numbers to yours…but whatever. All that matters is your delta. Mick seems to think his dyno history applies to your car…but as his car showed this week (dynoing 333whp vs. 360 whp a few months ago) dyno numbers are unreliable, and all but useless other than for creating funny debates.
Your baseline was 344/277 and with the full 2.75 catless you made 355/298? or 358/298? You posted 358 on quattroworld but I also saw you mention 355 somewhere.
So 11 or 14 whp over stock dps piggied/milltek and 21 wtq.
As I said to you earlier you should do a stock vs your setup dyno, but as I also said dynoing aftermarket exhaust on stock tune will just prove that the stock tune is a pretty restrictive and unable to take advantage of it.
Mick called me a numbskull for saying that we need to look at your delta on your car. Then he said that this is not true, called me a numbskull, and said we need to look at a stock baseline, and that using other cars’ stock baseline dynos is good enough rather than a stock baseline on Ben’s own car.
This is why we don’t listen to people like mick when it comes to performance evaluation.
His own numbers on piggies and a barely different than stock catback were 328/274. Ben’s car’s numbers on piggies and a barely different than stock catback were 344/277. The difference was huge…Ben’s car dyno’d 16 whp more than mick’s car…thus Ben’s car’s 2.75 numbers compared to Mick’s stock numbers will prove only what we already know. Either that or milltek vs. ECS hpipe = a bunch of power
dyno numbers car vs car suck for performance evaluation
mick is not who we should be listening to on any matter to do with me or JHM…it clouds his judgement and he makes silly statements lol
Not to long ago you were arguing against everyone saying 2.75 would see no benefit over 2.5 but then you go and make your own 2.75" system. That doesn’t make sense, why not stick to 2.5 and make more profit? You obviously knew JHM was on to something but you were trying to downplay them so you and that fat fuck mick could pimp your own shit. And if a tune supposedly blew my motor like you claim, I would never put it back on my car but you are now willing to give it another chance. Again makes no sense, it’s just you and that spider loving turkey neck fag trying to trash JHM any way you can. Just like that retard Ngng, he bought a bunch of JHM stuff so when an argument would flare up, he would be safe from attack and feel able to talk trash since he owned it. It’s all a bull shit ploy by you three bitches to trash JHM, go post your findings on here or az. Of course you won’t since you are all scared of getting trashed, you know all the rest of the old farts on qf will be there to stroke your ego and back you up.
As much as I don’t agree with a lot of your posts ben, props for adding another exhaust to the RS4 aftermarket.
Bu, I have to agree with 91gl. You were so quick to bash 2.75" systems, and to claim JHM’s tune blew your motor. A little hypocritical to go back to them, no? Why don’t you just jump on the EPL tune with all the rest of QW? --serious, out of curiosity.
Well, first off, I think everyone is still basing what I have said by what people on here claim, I have never said the JHM tune caused my motor to fail. What I have said is the motor failed 2weeks after the tune, and that some people have speculated that it was caused by the tune but that we will never know.
That being said, the only reason I want to try it is to put some claims to rest. If I can dyno higher than Micks car running the JHM exhaust and tune while I am running the same tune, it will say something. Plus, 5 pulls on the dyno won’t hurt anything and I already have the cable and own the tune, so might as well not make it a complete waste of $650.
I know you guys don’t like dynos, and I fully understand why, but at least on this dyno, it has a very good history of reliable, consistent numbers. I think it is reasonable to look at percentage gains on the same car and same dyno under the same or very similar weather.
I think you need to go back and look a what each dyno shows. My 344/277 run was not stock, note was it a baseline reading, it was a reading with a milltek exhaust and piggy downpipes, obviously there are going to be gains from it, how much I don’t know, but we will find that out if I can find a set of downpipes and go back with the car stock.
Additionally, while it doesn’t have any effect on my numbers, to say that the dyno is unreliable because Micks car dynod differently this time is wrong too. He has a bad O2 sensor on the drivers side. When. We had the exhaust off, we discovered that the drivers side sensor was white and passenger side was the normal black. This indicates that the driers side is running lean. We tried to order the sensors, but they would not have been here in time.
Anyways I am waiting for Mick to upload photos and then we will decide if we want to post them now or once we get the exhaust into production in the next week or two. We should have both titanium versions and stainless versions available. We need to do additional testing with the Titanium one to ensure proper fitment and that it sounds good and doesnt product too much heat.
Ben, stop dancing regarding the motor talk. You can’t make snarky comments on quattrofail and then come here thinking nobody knows about it. Same goes for all of the quattrofailers. Elevens learned this lesson yesterday too.
I think everyone knows what happened to your motor and I think that it’s pretty clear a smear campaign is under-way. Mick is now saying on quattroworld that he’s getting the JHM tune off of his car when he can because it’s ‘too close to the limit’. He is also saying the exhaust is no good and yours is way better…based on what? Based on a dyno where you gained 11 whp over a fucking milltek and stock piggies???
3 weeks ago Mick was saying the JHM tune was fine for him, served him well, no problems etc., and said that he thinks your engine failure was carbon buildup getting past the valves into the chamber (which is what Audi thought in all likelihood as is evident by their NOT sticking you with a blown motor bill for driver error/abuse/unauthorized ECU tuning). Now the tune is dangerous and he can’t wait to get it off his car? And the exhaust that allowed a bunch of cars to dyno 360-370 whp, to run 12.2 quarter miles and allowed him to post a low 7 second 3000-8000 rpm time is suddenly no good? This is a joke. Are people on quattrofail this stupid, that he thinks they’ll eat this shit up? Because it doesn’t work here where people are a little sharper regarding performance. I mean I know the RS4powers of the world who love their 2.25" exhaust setup and argue all day that it’s great (then switch to a full 2.75 setup weeks later lol) will be fooled but this is not the site to try this approach.
Nobody here is fooled by any of this bunk. Make some good products that work, and everyone will consider them…but this constant bullshit campaign will not help. Focus on yourself, and stop the FUD campaign against your competitors if you want ANY respect form the community.
A post was made that came under war room rules. To see more. This is the first post made by this member. The post had next to nothing to do with the actual subject of exhaust systems. http://audirevolution.net/forum/index.php?topic=697.0
Seems like something we have been seeing in the exhaust industry for years. You find someone that notices a good exhaust and then they copy it. Keep in mind I say sounds like.
Still several things don’t add up.
Seems ben? I assume is the one looking to try and push a exhaust system.
Ben apparently has little to no testing. From the sound of it he was cheering for the 2.5 size in the past.
So if thats the case. Ben tell us why the 2.75?
This was said
If you flow modeled it. Explain your results and why the need for the flow model? what was the delta gain dynamic you were shooting for.
I’ve been in the game for over 20+ years. This isn’t the first time you have a excited car owner that gets a exhaust system or part and then thinks there going to copy and spite the company that makes it.
From a outsider that has seen this kind of game. It looks to me like ben is looking to bash JHM in order to rise his status all the while taking there successful exhaust system and making one of his own.
I don’t know anything about what tune is on anyone car nore do I have reference. I drove a Chevy impala that pinged for 100k miles and never did any damage. Not saying this isn’t an issue. Just saying I doubt anyone with any strong automotive knowledge would think that a tune would destroy there motor in two weeks.
Your car would have to be running like complete CRAP and you would have to be completely empty of any automotive knowledge to be driving on a “tune” that is doing damage to not know it. So to say on one hand that your building an exhaust system and claiming you have strong automotive knowledge only to back it up by not knowing that your Tune was or wasn’t doing damage is beyond lack of any physical automotive standing.
What I gathered.
Your motor was hurt
you want to build parts. Parts that company X already make.
SO… your going to bash or at least let shadow of a doubt get out there in attempt to make yourself look better.
I have no cat in this game just calling it like I see it.
on a side note. I did actually end up contacting the guy who was the brains behind the JHM exhaust. He gave me 20 points on why he decided to go that route. So its clear from my stand point JHMs guy knows what he is talking about and what he is doing. Here is a great chance to either come clean or come with more attempts to save your bad story.
Let me finish saying this. You would get more respect if you just said. company X has a great exhaust people know it works Im looking to make something just like it. because the rest of what looks like you’re saying sounds like you’re full of shit.
Would be cool if JHM said they got alot of "inspiration’ for their exhaust too. I gave them the idea to make the drop out cats/test pipes, based on what I saw from AMD. It goes both ways you know.
Nobody said JHM exhaust was bad. JHM exhaust is good. But as a customer of JHM, i can tell you Ben’s setup is better. And he flow modeled it using actual engineering flow tools before making the system. He designed his X pipe on a simulation of flow area, ratios, etc. Its a work of art. Its pretty clear to see the only similarities are that it has 2 pipes, uses the same off the shelf muffler, and has the same 2.75 dia. So does AMD and so does MTM. I think this not a good area to actually call out copying claims. Because we can certainly start to play the copy game and test game all the way back to the original exhaust ever made.
Sorry friend your part of whats wrong with the industry. You can tell me X/Y setup is better? from what you just posted no… Your statements seem to back up your not technically advanced or able to back up anything you just said as you technically didn’t say anything. you also said you don’t know the inspiration on the JHM exhaust so Im assuming you don’t know how they tested or build or designed there exhaust.
you told me about design ideas and tools. Noting about the dynamics of what and why.
And the first exhaust systems sucked so your attempt at levity threw example is lacking any ground.
look I don’t have a stake in this. Im just calling it as I see it. From your last post it looks like your working with this fella and your both trying to rodeo this thing.
Read my title son… If you want to talk exhaust systems and stand on a stage you better bring a big book. Ive been doing this since most of you were in little kids pants. The same software most people use came from (chances are) the same team I worked on and with for 15 years
Usually people in the know don’t have to tell others they are in the know. Thats the first sign of someone with an over inflated sense of worth. You work for a muffler maker. People here know where i am/have worked. Don’t get into a debate with me about credentials, because you may feel rather silly after you get to know your target.
I have zero stake in anything Ben is doing. I have one purpose: Make the RS4 perform the best it can. Nothing else. I have not bashed JHM products, I have said some very good things about them. I have not spoken kindly about their customer service though, and their panache for misfortune.
I am not an exhaust expert. I am a mechanical engineer though and I can talk about the statics and dynamics of systems in general with a focus on FFT, wireless, and so on. But I do know one thing for a fact. People saying his system is a copy are completely off base.
My post clearly was not an attempt to share or illicit that I had any technical details on this system. I only know what flow models I have seen, the actual hardware in person and the performance on a dyno I did the same tests on with the system I have. I also know that there are many many other data points that make an exhaust perform, like cylinder count, rpm, pulse flow, scavenging, etc. But I am not in the business of testing and measuring these. I am in the business of being a consumer and looking at performance. His system performs. There will be plenty more tests and some other interesting things coming here so maybe I am getting ahead of myself But preliminary results are far better than anyone expected.
The only reason i am getting worked up here is because of this: Here you have a very nice young kid trying to make an honest go at starting a business and making something, and you have this character assassination going on. He deserves more respect than that. And people throwing out the “copy” statement are basing it on nothing except protectionism of their beloved JHM brand. I wonder will AMD come after JHM for making an x-pipe and drop out cat system just like theirs? You see, unless someone filed IP for this stuff, its open domain. So no AMD has nothing to say, and no JHM has nothing to say, and neither does any other exhaust maker going back years. So I suggest everyone stop the “copy” line. Its baseless.
the rest of this is not my argument, but this part is questionable. I’ve had the JHM x-pipe on both my S4 and A6, one from 2008, the other from 2007, and I’ve seen photos of the JHM x-pipe from 2006, and I’ve seen the RS4 x-pipes at the old fab shop. The JHM x-pipe is a copy of a Rousch Racing X-pipe from what I remember, given the connection with Ford etc.
Usually…your not a target son your a obstruction of truth. Marred in a small ego hoping people will care what you have to say.
Fact of the matter is you just told us you don’t know shit on the heals of trying to tell us you did.
[quote] QUOTE BY MickF29…I am not an exhaust expert.
[/quote]
Stand out of the way son and let the big boys talk.
your getting worked up about a upstart kid. Then good for him you seem a little consumed for just knowing some random guy. This isn’t the first time in the history people like you and Ben have tried to scam people. At this point your making ben look worse and worse.
I was just calling it like I saw it. Now this looks like a collaboration between the two of you. Ill bet 10,000 your going to get his exhaust… right?.. ok… wake up son people are not stupid
