Funny how cycles repeat themselves… Everyone is lapping this dudes balls for his testing… My guess is he is in bed with the vendor and just acting like he’s doing everyone a favor but who knows… Group buy grew real quick… IMO going to be a lot of dissappointed folks or maybe not because most probably won’t test it and they’ll percieve it to be working… IE butt dyno says it’s fast! Nice that Toni lets this go on at good old Vendorzine… lol
I have very little experience with piggy back modules, but If my thinking is correct, wouldn’t the information pulled via logging also be skewed?
These guys are talking about logging for safety, but if the piggy back is distorting the sensor signals and a log is basically a view of those signals…how could it be accurate?
Euro, Yeah, by no means am I an expert… Maybe they come up with a better way since MTM tried and it didn’t work… I just don’t like “tricking” something to get a desired result as it isn’t the correct approach IMO… What happens when you run an intake? That was what MTM blamed Voltron’s poor results on, with their infamous “take that shit off” post… lol
I just think overall this is a very shady thing going down… I pm’d the Mike guy who started it and asked for logs and if he was being compensated? Will see what he says…
There have been stock cars that have run right around the piggy times, shit I went 12.85 at 108 with a 2000ish ft DA stock, which is worse than any of his DA’s… He had a better DA every time and the best DA was when he ran the piggy, but he doesn’t disclose that… According to his post he also tested APR before stock… So did he get tuned and run, then untuned and run again, then piggy and run again? It’s possible but most go stock first… He posted his piggy slips to dragtimes last night but none of the others…
It just seems too much like a sales pitch to me… Now there’s a group buy and people are all over it since the vendor is only doing it until next week Monday, IE before anyone else can get it and retest… Will see if he replies to my PM and how it plays out but I’m calling a scam and if not I’ll eat crow… Also, the vendor is now posting so we’ll see if that gets Toni’s attention?
what do you think about his time slips? I found it strange that all of his slips, stock, APR and 2 of his piggy slips were within a few hundredths of each other but for the one anomalous one that was 2 10ths and 1.5 mph faster. But in all they showed about a 70 hp increase v. stock- if they’re to be believed.
First thought was SALES PITCH. I’m betting he was a “beta tester.” Also, he never posted actual slips, did he?
I love how everyone jumps in and immediately says they’re in for a group buy when they know zilch about the product and its effects.
Of course the vendor offers ~$50 off for anyone who orders by Monday. Now all the sheep start PMing him their credit card and social security numbers so they don’t miss out on this great deal.
Time slips are in the 1/4 mile thread of AZ- posted yesterday.
cabrario, Yeah I noticed that and of course that is the outlier one he is talking up and it was a hotlap pass which helps these cars from my experience… He’s also using LC so IMO it introduces more variability… Given it was his middle pass I don’t think he did anything funny, like race gas or whatever… Again, stock cars have gone that fast or very close in similar DA’s…
Ken, Yep that is what I thought when I read it… To his credit he’s been around a while on the forums, not that should be a testament but he didn’t join yesterday either… He did PM me back and said he is getting NO compensensation but I’m with you it sounds more and more like a sales pitch every post… He jumped on 13S4 when he questioned the device… He also said he posted the logs but I’m in the office so I guess I can’t see them… I’ll look at them when I get home later… At this point I’ll give him the b e n e f i t of doubt but will see how it plays out… Still think they’re wasting their time and money but it’s their time and money so they can have at it…
Oh and the slips are on dragtimes…
http://www.dragtimes.com/2015-Audi-S4-Specs-27389.html
I don’t get it. Why are we hating on a piggy back?
It’s nothing new. BMW guys, for example, have been using it with great success (and maaaaaany others!)
A piggy back in general will not alter rev limits, so that is an additional safety factor that keeps the motor to stock parameters (minus the sensor trickery. But the result is the same. You trick the sensors or you recalibrate the ECU. Both are doing the same thing – that is, the ECU is adjusting to new parameters). Is a piggy back vs flash not the same as boiling water? Only one is like using a kettle, and the other is using a microwave 
I don’t understand…how is he running all 3 of these tests?
within the same hr he is testing APR, Piggyback and stock. How is he doing that?
boro, I agree other cars have had great success not so much on the B8 S4, but maybe that will change… However, I totally disagree with your analogy on them doing the same thing… Tricking a sensor is not the same as changing the actual tables, values and such within the ecu…
Saki, He did the tests on different days… DA’s were close but the best when he ran the piggy…
Also, just noticed he has started two other threads in the B8 section… Here’s the one I found interesting…
I read this one and think I commented on it earlier- its an interesting setup to what he ended up doing with the PB. I would consider getting one for my wife’s Q5 3.0T - I’d be willing to put up $300 to see what if anything it does- Unless opinions are that it’s potentially damaging… more than any other tune could be that is.
I don’t think he’s making them money, just kind of on a holier than thou type crusade, you can tell from the tone of his posts. Why are we paying 1200 for a tune when other platforms get cobb for 500 type rhetoric.
Anyways, pretty surprising how little resistance he’s got…but it’s not like I have a leg to stand on with my APR tune…not noticeably faster than him with a stg 2 file. I’m assuming these are big in the BMW community due to how difficult it is/was to break factory ECU encryption. If everyone becomes content with a piggyback for $500, then the market isn’t really there to devote the resources for a proper flash.
You can tell that undercurrents are: cheap, no TD1 and most importantly - if it doesn’t provide results then I only spent 300 so who cares. There isn’t much desire for a tune that runs safely and reliably (which are my 2 most important factors).
I hope the market reaction is for APR to release better products that don’t end up with stg 1 with worse times than these piggyback guys. Will be interesting if they all follow through and we see an actually useful sample size.
ask him some simple questions
- are you at all affiliated with this product, or are you benefitting from its distribution?
- where are the muffin tops? I mean timeslips…
Member over “there” and member (now) here.
Whatever the motive, I am interested to find out what the fallout will be. Good or bad. For those looking to stay Stage 1 (and be free of TD1) it could be promising. It might not be either. Either way, it will be interesting to watch unfold.
Could be awesome. Who knows. The company is what… Turkish? Who the fuck knows. I wouldn’t trust my car to anyone without a better understanding of their background.
Made some points over in the ole venderzine on the subject, got attacked for being in bed with Arin. So I figured I’d do my best to get thread closed. Mission accomplished. Now I’m sure all the points I made against them will end will be deleted. Thread will be reopened and this guy will continue to get free advertising. I just don’t get it, $1200 for a proven tune is too expensive for these guys, but $350 with nothing backing it up but some guy saying its works great is ok.
here’s the thought process: “its just ~$300, if something gets fucked up, I’ll just take it off and have Audi foot the bill to fix it, no TD1, undetectable”.
very shady.
So the basic gist is: at a certain configurable RPM (adjust with small dial), the piggyback remaps the MAP sensor to report a lower manifold pressure than actual (by a configurable amount).
Sort of similar to driving in Denver for RPM > 4500 and Miami RPM <= 4500.
So now the ECU senses it isn’t hitting requested/target boost, and keeps the bypass shut. So functionality can be checked by logging RPF_AV. But the fueling isn’t right because AFR will be wrong, i.e. a lot more air than fuel, so you’ll run lean. You can log AFR with the O2 sensor to verify (where were the logs posted on vendorzine?). So the open-loop fueling (a multi-dimensional look up table, probably with a lot more inputs than simply MAP) will be wrong and you’ll have to rely on closed-loop correction from the O2 sensor to show a lean condition. How long that takes…who knows. Maybe the system could “learn” this and make a correction to the open loop trims, but then does that screw up normal operation (when your RPM’s are lower than 4500)? Or does it rely also on a closed-loop correction from the EGT sensor to show excessive temps and add some fueling to cool the combustion? While this could be fine for power, seems like it could be bad for the emissions system/cats.
This device will possibly also have some “bad” settings the user could put it in, maybe it works OK with the MAP scale .8 but shitty if you click it over to .7?
I think in turbo applications these might be different, they can affect the actuators directly, like blow off or waste gate. So they aren’t fucking with the fuel maps, just only producing more boost than requested. The issue being prevent overboost/surge? Plus, the JB4 looks to be a more integrated device, connected to the CAN network to yank signals so you can change settings with steering wheel buttons or other input stalks. http://www.burgertuning.com/jb4_pnp_BMW_performance_tuner.html
Anyways, just thinking out loud here.
Uh oh… This will get entertaining this week… Anyone want to bet the seller doesn’t give refunds or goes out of business?
- karma to Jran and drob…