Thought it was kind of funny how Mike@chipwerke jumped into the APR thread saying that he was “pricing out used engines today for a worst case scenario and am getting closer to saying f it and going stage 2 :)”
So going with an APR pulley/tune means your engine goes boom while running with a bogus MAP sensor is totally cool and safe. 
yeah, that was moronic. Backhanded compliment at its best.
“Wow great work guys! Using a pulley will definitely blow engines though…just buy a chipwerke!”
Nevermind that there are literally tens of millions of miles on APR stage 2 B8 S4s…
Timin retard isn’t such a big deal on N/A engines due to less cylinder pressures, educate yoursel
Supercharged or na his point is still valid.
ECU’s on FI are set up with an initial retard value and an additional incremental value to add or remove depending on wether the detonation event is still there or not. If there is a certain amount of KR within a certain amount of time the Ecu will switch to a totally different timing table with lower values…guess why they do that…to protect the engine!!
It’s similar on na cars but I’ve never tuned one so can only go on what I was told, na cars are trying to find the best power so tend to see knock more knock. If you log you’re FI car and hold it at a steady speed it will show knock as the ecu tries to maximise efficiency. Lower cylinder pressures mean that it’s not a big deal and not dangerous.
It’s worth noting that stuff rattling in the engine bay can trigger the knock sensor, I have observed this on many occasions. Also, if the initial retard value is aggressive then it may show higher values than is actually happening.
But what do I know, just some random hater
FI vs. NA is irrelevant. Stock tune B8 S4s, B5 S4s, A4 2.0Ts (I own one…wanna see logs) all do the exact same thing I described with my RS4. They pull timing when the car needs to pull back the reins a little.
You seem to have completely missed the point of my message. Maybe you were busy edumactin’ peoples.
However pulling timing does not equal bad tuning. It equals what happens when your car’s safety is working. If you’re choosing a poor fuel, or poor conditions or an unhealthy car, timing pull is your friend because it is protecting your car. Sure if someone is requesting insane levels of ignition timing advance that can result in consistent retardation, however that is not the case with any of the flash tuned Audis. Funny enough the only cars we’ve seen run super high levels of ignition timing advance were also running suppressed retardation safety (REVO’s early tunes).
P.S. Ironically you suggested I educate myself and then misspelled timing and yourself. You also said ‘less cylinder pressures’. Thank you for the lulz.
OK, so my question is why is this thing so sensitive to octane? Sensitive to altitude?
First, for altitude, is it due to the increased pressure differential between nominal and boosted? Is there are reason why a roots style supercharger would do this? In stock config, the car should just hold the bypass valve closed till higher RPM to reach the normal target boost pressure, correct? So the low end on a stock car will be worse, but at top end the car will show similar performance (in terms of power)? Or a positive displacement blower doesn’t do this?
Second, about the octane, I’m not sure why this has become such a large focus for the CW community. Obviously, tunes will not throw CEL’s and run like shit with bad gas or higher octane files (it’s a bad idea, but will the car run horrible if you run the 104 file with 93 fuel, maybe Jones can answer since he was doing this during meth testing?). So is the CW contention that the extra octane of “good gas” is somehow preventing problems during the lean transient period? So my guess would be that during this period (which in my mind is kind of an undefined period of time when driving around town vs WOT pulls), the burn is extremely lean and heating up cylinder temperatures? Which is causing detonation with the lower octane fuel?
Seems like this CW discussion on AZ has turned into: “oh your car runs bad, it’s cause bad gas + altitude” which seems like a cop out.
I didn’t misspell, I just have fat fingers whilst typing on my phone…what’s wrong with “less cylinder pressures”?
The fact is, timing retard happens to protect the engine so knock is bad. In those moments before the car reacts there is damage being done and however little you may think it is, it will add up over time.
If anyone uses crap fuel in a performance car then they need a slap across the face, if you still see knock retard consistently when running decent fuel, the tune sucks balls…maybe you didn’t get my point
you’re talking in circles
we’re talking about the B8 S4. You replied to my post and implied I don’t know what I’m talking about because I mentioned that my stock tune RS4 pulls 6-7 degrees of timing in some instances. Running 91 octane gas in horrid DA with 30,000 miles of carbon buildup for example.
By your rationale the tuning sucks balls. By my rationale the tuning has headroom for good gas, good conditions and a carbon clean. And the tuning is working…the car is pulling timing, not running full bore irrespective of knock sensor input.
You claimed that on an RS4 it’s different than on an FI car. I replied that my statement…that timing pull is safety, not bad, and is likely a result of other items (conditions, car health, fuel) not poor tuning. It’s irrelevant whether that is an NA car, a SC car or a turbo car. I’ve owned them all. I’ve logged htem all. it’s the same no matter what.
Your point was to throw a dagger at poor tuners…however NONE of the tuners in the current 3.0T marketplace have aggressive timing maps on their tunes, to the point that cars are pulling boatloads of timing.
So as I said, you’re talking in circles because you got a little cocky and got bitchslapped.
Oh…and the proper use in the context that you used it is pressure. Not pressures.
Lol@ bitchslapped…sure put me in my place 
The pressure in each cylinder is slightly different…so pressures is correct.
Again, you misinterpreted what I wrote. I’ll make it simple for you, if under ideal conditions you are still seeing Knock retard then there is either something wrong or the tune sucks and it is damaging the engine.
Your post insinuated that it’s not harmful, for timing pull to happen there has to be detonation or pre-ignition.
no, I said it’s normal. Never once did I say it’s not harmful to have detonation. I said timing being pulled is normal.
I clarified why it’s happening
I clarified that it’s usually a user problem (conditions, maintenance, fuel)
I clarified that none of the flash tunes for the B8 S4 (the focus of this discussion) have any problems with big timing pull
you ran in circles, and misspelled everything
are you changing your stance? because nowhere did anyone dispute that. In fact, you’re quoting what I said now.
Are you retarded (pardon the pun)?
You quoted me you dumb fuck, where I said exactly that, and then you told me to go educate myself. Five posts later, you’re copying what I wrote. Go back and re-read what you quoted.
I don’t think anyone is debating that the car shouldn’t pull (much) timing in ideal conditions. Ideal conditions are rare since so many factors go into whatever the definition of ideal is. The fact is, almost every B8 S4 (stock or tuned) I have seen logs for (over 25 now) pulls somewhere between 2-6 degrees of timing due to knock detection. In really bad conditions, you may see 7-8. Take that for whatever you want.
I’ll say this again, but also understand the context in which I am bringing this up. I’m not talking about logging the first run when your car is nice and cool. I’ll challenge anyone to do 4-5 back-to-back runs (either at the drag strip, or 3rd/4th gear WOT runs), and show me a car that doesn’t pull any timing regardless of conditions or fuel.
All of the recent stock and flash tuned vehicles I have logged seem to respond about the same in regards to timing and knock detection. If you want to limit knock/timing correction, good environmental conditions, good quality gas, and as much cooling as you can possibly add are the keys.
Back to the topic at hand… I had never personally seen more than 8 degrees until we started logging the CW “tuned” cars. Admittedly, one car was pulling that much stock, but there were several others pulling double digits with the CW installed. Again, make of that whatever you will, but the data seems pretty clear.
I am special, I’ll admit I only read the first paragraph of your original comment with a hangover and then went into spaz mode. I come from a platform where people can write their own tunes from the ground up and have seen some shockers from supposed “professionals”
My apologies, I shall sit in the corner and think about my actions.
[quote=“jran76,post:194,topic:7149”]
I have some Revo logs that don’t show any timing pull after several back to back strip passes ;D Didn’t end to well for that motor though… lol Just messin with ya bud as I know what you are getting at and I agree!
please tell me those weren’t recent 
Whats a normal pull for timing? I see my 2.0t stage 2 (apr tune) pulls 3 to 5 ignt under boost (p3 gauge)
I had the impression that was normal behavior. So should I chase the gremlins and make sure it stays at 0 under boost?
that was 2 years ago I believe. Interestingly they are now kind of conservative with ignition timing advance.
Actually I also have recent logs from a Revo stage 1+ car that didn’t pull any timing on three back-to-back dyno passes. I’ve posted the logs here in my dyno thread. The APR and GIAC cars pulled between 2-6 degrees for the most part. Revo did open the bypass slightly, and there was a long debate on both sites about what it really meant (how safe). They were at least as aggressive, or more so, with their timing as the other tuners, and they were the only ones with no knock correction. They came back with several long winded explanations for why it’s tuned that way.