Post Timing Chain DIY Woes - Diagnosis Help Needed!

B6/7 S4/RS4
#1

I completed the timing chain job and put the drivetrain / new clutch + flywheel back in about a week ago. It hasn’t been running well since the job, I don’t hear any of that typical rattle on start up, but it runs like a bit of a bag of potatoes misfiring etc. I used a basic vagcom scanner 3 days ago and got a cyl 5 and 7 misfire (can’t remember the code #'s), then yesterday i began to lose lots of power, as if it were running a cylinder short. When I did WOT from 2000rpm i would initially get a pop and hesitation (backfire) and then accel with about 150 less hp. It sporadically idles somewhat ok, and then terribly. I have scanned and cleared codes a number of times in the last few days now, and the cyl 5 misfire consistently comes back, whereas haven’t seen cyl 7 since the original scan. The CEL will sometimes be on solid, and other times be flashing.

I swapped the 5 and 6 coils with no success, ie the cyl 5 code stayed with cyl 5 after swapping. I have read a number of other threads on related issues and there seems to be a range of possibilities; from harness to ecu to injector, etc. I am going to borrow a fellow B6 S4 owners rosstech tomorrow to try and troubleshoot this a bit. I hope that the codes are more highly descriptive. If you guys have any input on this, it would be greatly appreciated.

I locked out the crank with pin and the cams before doing this job, I can’t see how I could possibly have caused it to be off by a tooth! Unless it’s possible to put the chain on incorrectly, but it seems to me that is impossible. Also wondering if the hall cam sensor on that bank could be cause a specific cyl misfire.

#2

Here are the VCDS results I got after going for a drive on the weekend and getting up to full operating temp:
4 Faults Found:
17755 - Camshaft Position Sensor 2 (G163) / Engine Speed Sensor (G28)
P1347 - 002 - Incor. Correl. MIL ON
16684 - Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
P0300 - 001 -
16689 - Cylinder 5
P0305 - 001 - Misfire Detected
16692 - Cylinder 8
P0308 - 001 - Misfire Detected
Readiness: 0010 1101

I am totally lost as to where to start with this. I should clarify from my previous post that it did run very well for the first couple days after the job. I didn’t touch the mechanical cam adjusters, had the cams completely locked out/crank pinned as stated before. Can’t understand how this thing could be out by a tooth when it was running well for the first several days after job completion, and then go down hill, it should have been consistently bad if adjuster or timing is out. Could it be completely coincidental that the cam adjuster has gone kaput at the same time as the job?
I really need some input on how to start troubleshooting from this point. I should probably start by checking vcds for specific sensor output functionality that i haven’t played with, see if i can get degree error in cam position, start testing pin outs (need some source of wiring voltage/resistances to crossref).

#3

I am going to do a compression check soon to see if valves are seating at TDC. Tonight I just played around with VCDS a bunch and ran through every read out I could find. Today driving home from work, it ran great, and then proceeded to mis and lose power later on, and was missing while i was doing the testing. I have checked every connector on the engine, but need to check all grounds (seems that there are 2 or 3 at least), and need to check if sensors are plugged properly on transmission too (can’t remember if there are 1 or 2 sensors on tranny). Probably good to note, I didn’t touch the mechanical adjusters during the timing job, and left everything locked.

Below is the printout from the vcds blocks that i cycled through and logged, a few of them i logged several times to get a sort of average of what is actually taking place, please chime in about some of the data, I am trying to figure out how to interpret it properly now:

Address 01: Engine (8E0 910 560 G)

21:14:17 Group 091: Camshaft Adjustment (Bank 1 Intake)
0 /min Engine Speed (G28)
5.1 % Cam. Adjustment Intake Bank 1
0.0°KW Cam. Adjustment Intake B1 (spec.)
0.0°KW Cam. Adjustment Intake B1 (act.)

21:14:17 Group 092: Camshaft Adjustment (Bank 2 Intake)
0 /min Engine Speed (G28)
5.1 % Cam. Adjustment Intake Bank 1
0.0°KW Cam. Adjustment Intake B2 (spec.)
0.0°KW Cam. Adjustment Intake B2 (act.)

21:14:17 Group 093: Camshaft Adjustment Adaptation
-2.0°KW Phase Position Bank 1 Intake
-16.0°KW Phase Position Bank 2 Intake

Address 01: Engine (8E0 910 560 G)

21:15:02 Group 091: Camshaft Adjustment (Bank 1 Intake)
760 /min Engine Speed (G28)
45.1 % Cam. Adjustment Intake Bank 1
15.0°KW Cam. Adjustment Intake B1 (spec.)
13.5°KW Cam. Adjustment Intake B1 (act.)

21:15:02 Group 092: Camshaft Adjustment (Bank 2 Intake)
760 /min Engine Speed (G28)
46.3 % Cam. Adjustment Intake Bank 1
15.0°KW Cam. Adjustment Intake B2 (spec.)
13.5°KW Cam. Adjustment Intake B2 (act.)

21:15:02 Group 093: Camshaft Adjustment Adaptation
-2.0°KW Phase Position Bank 1 Intake
-16.0°KW Phase Position Bank 2 Intake

Address 01: Engine (8E0 910 560 G)

21:15:28 Group 091: Camshaft Adjustment (Bank 1 Intake)
760 /min Engine Speed (G28)
48.2 % Cam. Adjustment Intake Bank 1
12.0°KW Cam. Adjustment Intake B1 (spec.)
11.5°KW Cam. Adjustment Intake B1 (act.)

21:15:28 Group 092: Camshaft Adjustment (Bank 2 Intake)
760 /min Engine Speed (G28)
45.9 % Cam. Adjustment Intake Bank 1
12.0°KW Cam. Adjustment Intake B2 (spec.)
11.0°KW Cam. Adjustment Intake B2 (act.)

21:15:28 Group 094: Camshaft Adjustment (Intake)
11.5°KW Cam. Adjustment Intake B1 (act.)
13.0°KW Cam. Adjustment Intake B2 (act.)
Test ON Cam. Adj. Test Bank 1 Intake
Test ON Cam. Adj. Test Bank 2 Intake

Address 01: Engine (8E0 910 560 G)

21:16:12 Group 011: Iginition
760 /min Engine Speed (G28)
102.0°C Coolant Temperature (G62)
68.0°C Intake Air Temperature (G42)
11.3 °BTDC Ignition Timing Angle

21:16:12 Group 015: Ignition (Misfire Recognition - Cylinder 1-3)
0 Misfire Counter Cylinder 1
0 Misfire Counter Cylinder 2
0 Misfire Counter Cylinder 3
Enabled Misfire Recognition

21:16:12 Group 016: Ignition (Misfire Recognition - Cylinder 4-6)
0 Misfire Counter Cylinder 4
273 Misfire Counter Cylinder 5
1 Misfire Counter Cylinder 6
Enabled Misfire Recognition

Address 01: Engine (8E0 910 560 G)

21:17:00 Group 015: Ignition (Misfire Recognition - Cylinder 1-3)
0 Misfire Counter Cylinder 1
0 Misfire Counter Cylinder 2
0 Misfire Counter Cylinder 3
Enabled Misfire Recognition

21:17:00 Group 016: Ignition (Misfire Recognition - Cylinder 4-6)
0 Misfire Counter Cylinder 4
161 Misfire Counter Cylinder 5
4 Misfire Counter Cylinder 6
Enabled Misfire Recognition

21:17:00 Group 017: Ignition (Misfire Recognition - Cylinder 7-8)
75 Misfire Counter Cylinder 7
1 Misfire Counter Cylinder 8

Enabled Misfire Recognition

Address 01: Engine (8E0 910 560 G)

21:17:15 Group 015: Ignition (Misfire Recognition - Cylinder 1-3)
0 Misfire Counter Cylinder 1
0 Misfire Counter Cylinder 2
0 Misfire Counter Cylinder 3
Enabled Misfire Recognition

21:17:15 Group 016: Ignition (Misfire Recognition - Cylinder 4-6)
0 Misfire Counter Cylinder 4
224 Misfire Counter Cylinder 5
5 Misfire Counter Cylinder 6
Enabled Misfire Recognition

21:17:15 Group 017: Ignition (Misfire Recognition - Cylinder 7-8)
100 Misfire Counter Cylinder 7
4 Misfire Counter Cylinder 8

Enabled Misfire Recognition

#4

That’s a post from someone that definitely knows how to give information to help others help him.

Good news is mechanical issues generally don’t fix themselves. The fact that it’s intermittent is good. Do I have it right that the car can drive fine at times with no misfires?

#5

You are correct! It is intermittent; sometimes running like a champ with seemingly full torque curve, and sometimes very limited power. It is occurring to me that i should really be testing intake manifold for leaks on bank 2. I guess next step is compression and intake leaks. Some input on the VCDS data from other guru’s would be huge!

#6

Boomer3

You came to the right place and posted enough data for the answer. Audirevolution is loaded with tons of guys who have done this and are happy to help. So, good to have you and now on to helping.

Your bank 2 reluctor looks to be installed wrong or incredibly out of phase. It’s right on the limit for error. So, sometimes you won’t get an error and other times when it needs to adjust you will. There is a breaking point for adjustment. When you go WOT the adjustment isn’t made and the car will break up.

Flashing CEL= mass missfire

The only other issue I can see is you don’t have a JHM tune :slight_smile:

Look into the bank two. Please if you can post pictures of what you find. It might help us help you more if you’re stumped.

Check your bank 2 reluctor and phase. You should find the answer there, according to the data you posted.

#7

You may also want to check the turboencabulator (unless your car came with the more recent retroencabulator).

:wink:

#8

Thanks for the input and being willing to help, I am trying to provide as much information as I can. I agree that the -16deg reading looks to be way out, according to my calculation, 1 tooth would be about 14.5 deg out of phase, and this is close to that number.

The problem is that I did not touch the reluctor/cam adjuster. I left the intake sprockets completely untouched and locked out during the timing chain procedure, and this is why i can’t understand how the bank 2 reluctor could be installed wrong/out of phase. Is it possible for the cam to be out by one tooth, but to be adjusted by computer back into phase periodically? If this is possible, then it would explain why it runs at full power some of the time, but defaults back to missing & less power.

When you say right on the limit for error, do you have values that indicate the limit to cross reference? Part of my issue is that I don’t have any way to cross reference the data that I have to understand my problem properly. I suppose what I can do is remove both valve covers, bump the starter until the cam slits line up with the plane of the head, and see if left bank and right bank appear to be out of phase from each other. In this case, I would be looking to line up bank 1 which appears not to misfire or have issues, and compare angle of rotation on bank 2 at that time. If you guys have suggestions of how you would test, please share.

#9

I think it must be out by a tooth on intake side, but have a lot of trouble conceding to that fact when considering that it runs well for a while (10-20mins driving) when i start up after codes are cleared. The -16deg is always constant, and i have taken the reading about 10 different times, so regardless of my doubts/suspicions, that phase angle is telling me that it is mechanically out.

I have all the plugs out now and just ran compression; I got 145-150 across the board on bank 1, and got 110 across the board on bank 2. I am going to pull bank 2 valve cover tonight and inspect now that i’m at this point.

#10

Did you use the timing chain tools for this job?

http://jhmotorsports.com/shop/catalog/cam-tensioner-and-chain-tools-rental-for-b6-b7-s4-p-661.html

If not, that could explain how it could be slightly off.

#11

Yes, I machined my own crank pin and cam locks, they were all aligned very tightly/accurately. The only thing that I did not do was to mark off position of chain to sprocket, which could have been used to reference whether i was off or not during re-install. So i suppose that something could have happened when releasing everything.

#12

The issues seem to be linked to bank 2. 110 is well below where you should be. Did you spin the motor over 3 full compression cycles and then check timing reference marks, before putting it back together?

#13

I did spin the engine over multiple times, but i was not thorough enough in rechecking the timing slots to see whether bank 1 and 2 cam slots were simultaneously flush at TDC.

I took the driver side (bank 2) valve cover off just now, from what i can tell, the intake and exhaust cams are aligned to each other, ie the slots in each cam are parallel with each other via visual inspection. My question for everyone is how much play should there be in the cams when the system isn’t pressurized?? I put a wrench on the intake side and could torque it back and forth a bit. If i torque on both cams toward each other, it puts a bunch of slack in the chain between the two. I am still not sure how to find out whether they are out by a tooth or not. I guess the way is to simply set bank 1 at tdc with the cam lock bar, and see how close bank 2 is?

#14

Would be awesome if somebody could comment at this point based upon their experience:

I have the front end apart again, both covers off, and have put the cam lock bar on bank 1 (passenger side). Bank 2 is slightly misaligned although it seems really minimal to me. I suppose minimal visually can still mean 1 tooth! On Bank 2 I can rotate the cams clockwise a decent amount, (at least 1 tooth in deg of rotation), and can get the flat bar in to lock those cams. I cannot rotate them counter clockwise, and this makes sense as that is pulling against the non slack side of the chain.

My first question is how much play in the cams is normal on that side, it seems normal that you can rotate the cams as much as the tensioner/slack side will allow.

My second question is; when not touching cams should they be PERFECTLY lined up relative to the other bank? Or is a small degree of rotation with a wrench normal to get the locking bars on. I may have to just loosen the bank 2 upper chain (sprocket off and tensioner locked), rotate both cams forward a tooth, and see how they line up. Before I do this is there any other way of checking? IE by checking valve clearance at TDC and comparing bank 1 and 2?

#15

Slightly misaligned I bet means the bar won’t go in? If the motor is in time all of the tools will fit in their appropriate positions.

IMHO you are over thinking this man. If you have all of the timing tools including the cam tensioner tool? Put the crank pin in (make sure you look in the hole and actually see the hole in the crank) because you could techically miss the hole and the pin will thread all the way in. After you lock the crank, try and insert the cam lock bars. The Bentley, which I hope you used, says it may be necessary to rock the cams a little to get the cam lock bar in.

If you have to turn the cams more than just rocking, your engine is out of time. You should really go back to square one and reset the timing on the motor. If you have all the required tools and follow the bentley manual this job is almost dummy proof. Also, like CV mentioned after completeing the job the manual tells you to turn the motor over at least 2 complete revoltuions and re-insert the timing tools to check everything one last time…something you skipped or just eyeballed??

#16

Hmm. Its tough to say really without having the car in person to look at.

I know you made your own timing tools, but I would recommend trying the Audi ones this time around:

http://jhmotorsports.com/shop/catalog/cam-tensioner-and-chain-tools-rental-for-b6-b7-s4-p-661.html

#17

I don’t have much to offer other then. If you home made a cam bar and your old components were wore out. It’s likely that with the play in the old parts your bar was off. Consider taking a picture to show those in know what’s going on and what it looks like on your end.

#18

I think you are right, I think that I am overthinking this. I have been going a little bit nuts with trying to verify that there isn’t something else that I’m not considering, but everything tells me its out by one tooth on bank 2. The only other possibility is that the idler sprocket below the intake/exhaust sprockets needs to be timed or keyed correctly, but I didn’t see this anywhere in my Bentley manual.

Like an idiot I did NOT re-insert the tools after turning over several revolutions, you hit the nail on the head. Hard to admit, tough lesson for me, never get cocky. I presumed that with cams locked out, they couldn’t possibly rotate back ~ a tooth. I used 0.25in flatbar machined to a slight wedge and tapped them into the cam slots, it was extremely parallel, and the crank pin was machined within about 0.005. Believe me, nothing wrong with making tools properly, but definitely something wrong with being arrogant enough not to do the final check. I am going to rotate cams forward a tooth and check compression. Thanks for the input guys.

#19

Can you post a picture of your crank pin you made?

#20

sure

http://C:\Users\bpierce\Desktop\pin 2.jpg