Progress for the B5 2.7T...5 year review

B5 S4/ RS4
#1

Was just discussing this and thought I would start a thread to see if there has been any progress that I have missed in the B5 game over the past 5 years.

First off, from where I sit the market is flooded with re-invented wheels…and none of them seem to work any better than the stuff out back in 2007 or so. There have been a dozen or so ‘new’ turbos, yet I haven’t seen any B5 2.7t cars accelerate any harder than the B5 cars of yore (with maybe 1 exception). I have seen a bunch of new tuning companies step up to be ‘the man’ but again, haven’t really seen any progress. The quarter mile used to be a very popular method of evaluating acceleration and power mods for the B5, but that seems to have faded. That appears to be partially (if not entirely) fuelled by the quarter mile fear mongering of a few companies who are terrified of seeing their products at the dragstrip and would rather buyers remain distracted by dyno sheets.

One thing I do know is that in 2006-2008, it was really exciting watching the B5 forums. Even though I didn’t own one, I loved seeing them kick ass and would find myself subscribing to threads regularly. There was a major change around that time though…tell me if you saw it too.

VAST was lighting a fire under the B5 world’s ass in those days, but when Count Vohn stepped away from VAST and stepped into the JHM V8 program, VAST seemed to fizzle. Did VAST accomplish anything exciting after that time? Other than championing frankenturbos, a replica of the K04 with marginal differences but most notably a big price and availability improvement. I really can’t recall anything. There was the 2.0T big turbo flop. The GT kits that looked so promising, but once the tuner changed they went from mid 11s at 130+ MPH to 12s and 13s @ 120.

JHM was tearing it up too with VAST/count vohn tuning to push them along. They had the fastest K04 car with an interior. They had the fastest K03 car full stop. But for them, they saw a better business model in the B6/7 world…and stepped away from the B5 scene altogether. Since that time has anyone come close to running 11.1 @ 130 on a K04 car ? Or 12.2 on a K03 car? Records are made to be broken…but those records were set ages ago. 5 years now.

JHM has provided a turbo option called the RS6r that appears to be , like the frankenturbo, a slightly different RS6 style turbo with a couple of tweaks, but a massive price and availability improvement. Other than the JHM RS6r car that went 10.8 recently with a full interior/exhaust etc. , here’s what I’ve seen the B5 accomplish in the past 5 years. Feel free to add anything interesting and significant that youthink should be on the list.

1. USP went 9 seconds @ 150 mph…but abandoned the 2.7T to do so. They went 9s using a VW engine. It was basically the guts of a turbo’d VR6 from a golf/jetta in a B5 bodysuit. About as progressive for the B5 world as the gutted 8 second ‘B7 RS4’ that had a 2.2T in it and 18 inch wide drag tires. Hardly a benchmark to cling to for the B5 (or B7). USP’s car is cool as hell, but shouldn’t be held up as a B5 S4 accomplishment, because the heart of the B5 was torn out of the car to achieve it.

2. EPL Tial cars have posted some incredible dynos, and great 60-130 times for a two cars, but that’s it. When tested below 100 mph, the cars flop at the strip.
500 whp? check! 600 whp? check! 700 whp? check! 750 whp? check! 11 second timeslips? (crickets). Faster than Dan’s K03 record even? (crickets)

3. Jfonz tuning. Fastest 2.7T B5 S4 over the past 5 years, other than the JHM RS6r car is the JFonz tuned Tial 770 car on race gas that went 11.1 @ 129…a.k.a. same as what the B5 K04 record was FIVE YEARS AGO. The owner has since ditched the Tials and is going in a new direction.
Jfonz has figured out that EPL can’t tune, and that VAST was useless without Kurt, and has taken some simple lessons and created effective tunes for the platform…primarily from code learned on n.e.f That’s kinda interesting…not sure it’s great for the platform though. The only fast quarter mile times I’ve added to the B5 list OTHER than pre 2008 times and other than JHM’s recent RS6r time have been jfonz. A guy comes along and whips the EPL and AMD and VAST cars’ asses…and he’s operating from his garage??? That’s a big wake up call for B5 land.

I’m struggling to find anything else.

Most damaging is that the B5 don’t appreciate threads like this one. They will call it a B7 guy hating on the B5. When in reality, it’s a B7 guy hating on the companies that aren;'t delivering on their promises…and basically treading water (or going under) rather than delivering progress to the platform.
Lots of people are sticking up for the user base and telling the shops that it’s UNACCEPTABLE to put out mediocre products that don’t deliver on what is promised. They are instead branded haters. Maybe the majority of the B5 guys hate hearing people call out the disappointments because what happens is they all realise that the platform IS truly at a dead end that hasn’t gone anywhere…and that they have been fooled for the past 5 years into thinking great shit was happening.

#2

I feel that there has been hardware progress, not so much tuning progress. On one hand, the argument can be made that an RS6/GT car will beat a K04 car from a roll, even if the 1/4 mile is the same or less. But at the same time, trap speed is a great indicator of actual wheel horsepower, and these cars are not trapping anywhere near what their horsepower would indicate.

So if the AMD car went 5’s 60-130 and used the same setup for the quarter mile, you could expect a trap speed of 135-140. This obviously did not happen, so it is reasonable to suspect some power adder was used for the 60-130 (especially since it was a single gear run, some nitrous would be needed to spool those turbos below 3K RPM).

The B5 platform is the only one I have seen that will make a separation between quarter mile times and 60-130 times. If a car is fast at one, it will be fast at the other. There is no, “oh well this car isn’t meant for the quarter mile.” Big power equals a big trap speed (and usually a good ET)…end of story.

So these cars just aren’t making the power advertised. A real 700 wheel horsepower car is going to trap over 140 miles per hour. So something is missing, whether it be the tuning or the fact that we’re stuffing a GT28 size turbo on 1.5 liters of displacement. Either way, these cars aren’t making the power advertised.

The formula has not changed from 2006, or any time period for that matter. Stuff a lot of air into the engine, utilize the best fuel to advance timing and enjoy the ride.

#3

ruh roh…you didn’t just post that did you?

:slight_smile:

I agree that the distinction between quarter mile and 60-130 is a bit absurd. Fast cars in the quarter mile also go 60-130…they just also go from 0-60. I don’t know if a nitrous shot is the reason they do well 60-130 but suck at the drag strip though…those cars would enjoy the nitrous at the strip as well.

I think the tuner is just not that good. Simple as that. As I mentioned, count vohn tuned a B5 S4 that had the GT600 kit, nogaro blue car with license plate ‘corn fed’ for Andy Baloney. Thing was INSANE. Went 11.6 @ 127 or something in 100 degrees of heat. Andy went bankrupt and that car ended up back at VAST, where he ironically ended up working. The geniuses at VAST thought they could tune better, and ended up running 13 seconds in the car. I shit you not. It was a great indication of how a bad tuner can ruin a car’s acceleration if it is forced to rip through a few gears.

Another example…APR tuned their B7 RS4 supercharger kit and made about 425 wheel horsepower…but the car ran mid-high 12s in the quarter mile. When they called in Count Vohn, he retuned it and it went 12.0 @ 116-117. He made a million changes to their tune. Actually he started fresh. When APR asked to see the file, he explained some of what he did to them, and they made adjustments of their own. They retuned their car using some of his changes, and were able to just about (but not quite) match the performance he got out of the car. The car made similar power before and after…but the curve, and the driving dynamics involved with the tune (lots of throttle changes for example) made a WORLD of difference.

But I like the nitrous theory. It’s interesting if anything. If they really made power with nitrous, they should just frigging sell nitrous! I personally just think the tuner is holding the EPL cars back.

p.s. we should have included E85 on the list of B5 progress…that has added a good punch for a lot of cars. Not sure it counts as B5 progress, but hey…the platform needs something!

#4

what…careful… this all sounds like the same person.

Ive said it several times. There has been a backwards movement. I also agree with merlionsmajuik that some cars seem to have a little extra or don’t add up.

There has been hardware options but I wouldn’t call it hardware progress. The b5 is the same recvycled thing over and over. They are constantley looking for something the energize the platform. In all reality most 95% of all the B5 cars are 12.5-11.7 cars.

The B5 is a race gas car and if race gas isn’t enough run E85 pure alachol. E85 will make a old pinto fast. Its all gimmik stuff now adays.

The only thing that has been advanceing in the B5 is the bullshit the is fed to people.

#5

I agree whole heartedly. People treat the B5 like it is a separate entity from other cars. Power equals performance, pure and simple. There is no such thing as 5,6,700 wheel horsepower with dismal performance. It isn’t that the car isn’t made for performance, it is that it just isn’t making the claimed power.

I mentioned nitrous because 1) It will spool the turbos faster and 2) It is a power adder. Going from trapping 120-125 to running 60-130 in 5 seconds means that power was added, plain as that. Regardless of the turbos used or the car in question, theres lies a standard formula to making cars faster. Unless the S4 is some magical case of large turbos flowing less air than small turbos, the same formula applies.

When we did the RS6 car for Sport Compact car, it made 572 wheel horsepower and 672 wheel torque. At the same competition this equated to an 11.1 at 126 quarter mile (actually the fastest time as the DA wasn’t favorable). And to be honest, those dyno numbers are very favorable as this car could not break 530 wheel on our dyno. And, considering the DA, that performance is just what I would expect from an S4 with 530 wheel (not one with 600 or 700 wheel).

#6

yeah, Merlin’s Magic is asking tough questions about AMD/EPL and saying the b5 hasn’t made much progress so therefore snowtrooper and meow and friends will now say that he doesn’t exist either.

Man, we keep vanishing. As soon as you ask a tough question, POOF! you don’t exist, and are someone’s alter-ego.

How about this…maybe a bunch of people just think the same way!

#7

I wish I could add something here…the truth is Saki is correct. There have been very few (no) advancements as far as 1/4mi times go.

I hope to be working on a methanol tune for my B5 in the spring with Josh. I am not trying to be unique with my choice of fuel, just using what is readily available thanks to my close proximity to the oil sands (methanol is a by-product)

I am not so certain that any of the AMD/EPL cars were tuned with NO2, but I do believe the power curves were/are not great for 1/4mi application. Saki pointed out that a good tuner (CV) was able to have earlier toque onset and thus better results at the strip, I believe that would be the case with these AMD/EPL cars as well.

#8

My “fantasy” 2.7T build would be a well sorted K04 build with similarly well sorted supporting mods. Go through everything involved with air, fuel and spark and make it solid and robust. Get a nice CV tune and enjoy.

ZeroT seems to have specc’d a good modlist and I would like to wager that’s a customer car that will put the other “fad” turbos to shame. Unfortunately the silly bugger wants to sell (I hope he reads this :D).

#9

PS the VR6 is one hell of an engine. Love the sound.

#10

[quote=“bangoman,post:8,topic:4022”]
I’d be very surprised if my car doesn’t perform really well. I didn’t cut any corners and only purchased what I believed to be the best.

#11

I’ve always wondered why nitrous on the B5 wasn’t addressed properly earlier. It just seems like a no brainer for track or street race situations, especially for the built motor guys and guys buying/building the B5 for a monster toy.

Well before the whole TiAl thing, I thought a built RS6 with a 30 or 50 shot would just murder everything (and with built motors I would think even more is reasonably possible). The 335 guys were doing nitrous in 2010 with a basic 50 shot (http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=354785) and went from just a little over 400whp/wtq to damn 490whp 480wtq. Considering the failure of the big turbos is their late spool and small powerband, nitrous would seem like the obvious track king answer.

But I guess it all goes back to effective tuning. Since the B5 seems to have basically lost that competition, that makes it hard to implement such tedious new advancements.

Personally I think the B5 has fallen from the king status to a troubled step child. Older 5 cyl seem easier/more reliable/cheaper to get big power (and VR6’s as USP did), the newer Audi’s are obviously performing well to mods due to a competitive product market (well minus the B6/7 with JHM, but the RS4 S/C is competitive), and the B8 is a steller performer as well.

Right in line with that other makes/models are killing it as well with advancements, CTS-V, C63 in higher priced markets, BMW 335’s in the lower end market (nowdays $1500 gets you 420whp+ in a 335 with tune+meth+DP).

I still like the idea of the B5, and have often toyed with building one as a side project car, but as time goes on the platform just seems to see less & less progress forward which seals the deal for not doing a build like that.

#12

I would have to agree on everyones points. There hasnt been much advancements except for Jhm coming witht the RS6-R and Frankenturbo coming out with some cheap solutions for turbos as well these are the only things i would call advancements, not really even advancements just making an older platform more affordable for how old it is. I have Frankens on my car now and couldnt be happier i run them with meth and just put a new clutch in and in the fall i plan to run it but as far as putting more money into the car unless i went RS6-Rs or something similar and built motor i just think i would go with a different car like a B8 or something along those lines. Just with all the companies dissapointing people by just saying they dnt care about running the cars at the tracks makes me think im getting screwed right away. Test your products people! dont make the customers do it all themselves i mean there not making profits by selling the products! Just as i said before on AZine i dont think Epl or AMd even have shop cars to test parts on…how ridiculous is that?!?

#13

Exactly, not having a shop car is kinda weird if you ask me.

APR owns/owned the following shop cars
B5 S4
B6 S4
B7 RS4
B8 S4 (3 of them)
B8 RS5
S7
S8
R8 (race program)

JHM own/owned the following cars
B5 S4 (3-4 of them)
B6 A4 (2 of them)
B6 S4 (4 of them)
B7 RS4

I just frankly don’t know how the hell you can know if your shit works by looking at a dyno chart for some random customer’s car that you have for a few hours.

As for the dragstrip stuff, that’s incredible what the head guy at EPL did on that thread on Audizine.

[quote=Tony@EPL]At the end of the day I honestly could careless about 1/4 mile times.
[/quote]
Now we’ll ignore his brutal butchering of the term ‘I couldn’t care less’ with Tony’s version ‘I could careless’ which means…well I guess it means you dropped out after grade 3. We’ll assume he meant to say that he couldn’t care less, a.k.a. doesn’t care at all about the quarter mile.

then a few posts later, when the discussion makes it clear the members in the know understand the important information to be garnered by quarter mile times…EPL flip flops.

[quote=Tony@EPL]HELL YA we care…
[/quote]
Talk about empty headed. Those companies terrify me audiholic. I have NEVER seen a company who loves the dyno and hates the quarter mile do well when tested. I’ve never seen an EPL, AMD, VF, PES etc car post a good quarter mile time that lined up with what they claimed the car could do on the dyno.

#14

Alright guys tme to come clean fake accounts how many of youguys are thesaurus person. There are not reallythis manylevel headed guys seriously a lot of the posts look like they are the same rghting

This post cuts to the chase and to the heart of the matter. You can’t make a big claim and not back it up. If yousay your 7 feet tall but you can walk threw a 5 foot tall door without bending down something doesn’t add up and the hardcore b5 guys are screeming they never need to talk threw doors or doors dontmatter.

The b5 has become the dyno quuen car like most supra cars. Desperate people harbur despeate hopes that’s all we are seeing now

Dont care about the 1/4 mile…OK…and I dont care about the weight scale after the holidays. It’s not that I don’t care I just know my fat ass shouldnt look cause won’t like what I see.

Let’s kill the roadcoarce debate right now. I personally don’t know buying know there are a few. How many popular tracks have atleast 1 1/8th mile straight if not longer after a tight turn that would slow people down enough for 1st or 2nd gear

#15

^^^ his comments are the exact reason why I want to run the 1/4 with my existing EPL tune then turn around and seek CV or even JFonz for tuning and compare. I haven’t seen anyone, to my knowledge, perform such a comparison. It won’t quite be apples to apples due to unknown variables but the weather doesn’t change drastically in South Florida and the same driver will be behind the wheel.

Insane comments to come directly from the tuner himself.

#16

It’s a bit scary that nobody has any accomplishents or ‘progress’ to add to the list of 3 or 4 things we talked about.

Seriously, it’s this bad?

The single turbo kits are interesting. They’re not really working awesome just yet because of the testing being interrupted at 034 anyway by Max’ car getting all fucked up. The other one off single builds like snowtrooper (how many years now?) that are supposedly going to revolutionize the market haven’t exactly lit the world on fire. Lots of talk though.

#17

Let’s kill the roadcoarce debate right now. I personally don’t know buying know there are a few. How many popular tracks have atleast 1 1/8th mile straight if not longer after a tight turn that would slow people down enough for 1st or 2nd gear

I agree I don’t think that was a smart move on Tony part. The part about compairing tune vs tune if you ask me a Good tuner will do more then just make it so your car runs. A Good tuner will help tell you what hardware to run someone like jfonz is desperate he will try to tune anything try a real tuner. Most of the real tuners won’t tune what they know won’t work best for you

#18

I wasn’t talking road course, I was talking the 1/4 as I indicated in my previous post and CV would be my first choice… I’ll get back in touch with Jnaut, assuming Zero’s car is wrapped up soon.

#19

Sorry Chris, I see you were referring to Tony, not me.

#20

Last I heard from Jason he was heading to the hospital with flu-like symptoms so you could potentially be waiting awhile.