Recent tests between GIAC stage 1 and APR stage 2 on our track -vag com and vbox

B8 S4
#1

I posted this over on AZ since there is all this talk of the GIAC pulley and dumb hints at it’s ridiculous power…
Rumblings of 18 psi etc… Jason has seen the logs for both cars… please feel free to chime in. I am really starting to hate AZ though… people are just so defensive and the posts are aggravating to read.

I didn’t feel like editing for here… u guys know the vbox shit.

Just wanted to post some of the vag com data I have collected and finally posting and some recent thoughts on the vbox thread we have going on… I have a detailed summer session between APR/GIAC/REVO I need to organize and post up also… just swamped with work and this stuff takes forever to compile.

As far as Vag com data…Since we don’t have a GIAC stage 2 car just yet for us to test… Pete and I decided to do some same night testing to just show what’s going on inside car that we don’t see with the vbox.

I would like to see what the GIAC car/pulley setup is gonna do. We are definitely gonna be doing much more testing with the vbox and test track runs as well as seeing what’s going on via the vag com. Somehow I can’t see peak 18 psi boost without a compensation i.e. lowering timing. At least based on Pete’s logs. A whole lot of timing pull going on right now. You can contribute a little to “bad gas” but it’s been logged a few times with similar results.

Here are is the session we did the other night.

APR stage 2+, Awe intake, Awe cat back exhaust
GIAC stage 1, new version just flashed, Injen Intake, Awe cat back exhaust.

Temps: ~40 degree F
Density Altitude -1400
Atm Pressure 1025 mbar

Boost in Psi- very easy to see where pulley shines. I have hit 17.9-18.0 psi on some nights.

http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q421/tsivas2727/Boostshot.jpg

Requested Boost vs Actual Boost-

http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q421/tsivas2727/reqboostshot.jpg

Mass Air flow- I peak at about 1475 kg/h or 410 g/s. GIAC peaked about 1378 kg/h or 383 g/s.

http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q421/tsivas2727/MAFshot.jpg

Engine torque via vag com in Nm/or lb-ft (again can see where pulley makes biggest difference, see same on dyno sheet I posted below)

http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q421/tsivas2727/tqshot.jpg

Ignition Angle /Degrees (GIAC runs higher timing up top and this helps with higher speed rolls/runs)

http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q421/tsivas2727/timingshot.jpg

Timing pull (APR had very little timing pull going on… in fact probably could beiiiinefficientficientficientficientit from some increased timing from my recent logs… GIAC car had a whole lot going on. Have seen that with a few data logging sessions we have done… some say its bad gas, I think it’s a little of both)

APR logs

http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q421/tsivas2727/timingapr1.jpg

http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q421/tsivas2727/timingapr2.jpg

http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q421/tsivas2727/timingapr3.jpg

GIAC logs

http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q421/tsivas2727/GIACtiming1.jpg

http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q421/tsivas2727/GIACtiming1.jpg

http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q421/tsivas2727/GIAC3.jpg

http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q421/tsivas2727/GIAC4.jpg

Anyways… We have seen some acceleration data from my vbox thread that I have compiled with Auditude. Basically all three tunes are fairly even when it comes to 60-130 times with these cold temps (11.6-11.76 secs). Starting at lower speeds than 50-60 mph show that the APR stage 2 definitely has some advantage, at least in recent data collection.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/481006-Updated-Vbox-list/page6

http://i1219.photobucket.com/albums/dd440/Auditude20T/Database82412.jpg

These vbox tests are very different from the quarter mile tests/list that is compiled up top and are a very different view of the tunes.

If you extrapolate from the vbox/pbox or whatever you want to call it-- the data for 60-130 the APR stage 2 car has a very slight advantage. This is clearly also seen when doing side by side pulls on our test track.

Any higher RPMs pull between the two cars is very close with the advantage going slightly to the APR car. Personally from what I can pull from the vbox data, and keeping shift times out of equation in the two manual cars… I think 3rd gear is more powerful in the APR stage 2 car and 4th is more powerful in the GIAC car. I have vag com’d, vboxed, dynoed… both cars. Argue what u want. The pulley is exceptional down low. Up top… the beiiiinefficientficientficientficientits are not so clear. IATs rise very quickly with my max achieved 17-18 psi of boost here at sea level/ -1400 DA nights…and timing hovering at around 16-17 degrees. Conservative… yes. I prefer that. Virtually no timing pull in my car in these temps. Very Little. Log the GIAC car in same conditions… and the timing pull is very different and very busy. Same goes for the REVO car. They are making their power moreso with timing (~19-20 degrees of timing advance (GIAC) and ~24-25 degrees of timing advance (REVO). 25 degrees is what I peak at when I am on Race gas. Revo runs this on pump.

Peak boost for both those cars (GIAC, Revo) is nothing impressive…low to mid 14 psi.

Now take a 40-130 with same lower rpm/gear start… forget it…the APR car now has almost a .3 second advantage. It pulls ahead much quicker as 15 psi is seen very quickly. 30-130 is even worse.

The advantage of the pulley is down low. If we did a 15 mph pull in first gear… you will clearly see the APR car pulling away early on.

REVO/GIAC use their timing advantage and the APR Stage 2 car uses it’s boost advantage. We are talking pump vs pump runs here. Up top, especially at cruising speeds… the beiiiinefficientficientficientficientits of timing outweigh the beiiiinefficientficientficientficientits of boost. This is at least how it is for us. Things get hot really quickly with high boost and without a CPS (me)…it might be costing me some hp. That’ll be fixed soon though.

In fact to prove this further… we did a back to back dyno session in the summer between the APR stage 2 car and the GIAC stage 1 car and you can see the exact same thing happening. I will leave dyno numbers out of it… they mean squat. But from dyno below… the pulley has ~10-15 whp advantage and ~15-20 wtq advantage up until ~4600 rpms. Then they are identical.

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/12/11/06/uny4ugyd.jpg

We will go and video the results one night and show you 30 roll and 50 roll results.

On a side note…I have changed over to a Roc Euro intake from AWE intake/hacked airbox setup since our last sessions get-together and the data I have gathered from that will blow your mind. I was not a believer in the open element filter and this heat controversy and was fixated on the vag com data that showed how awesome my AWE setup was flowing… but I did back to back intake testing that same night and the Roceuro gained a best of 0.39 secs from 30-120 mph when comparing it to the best AWE run and an average of about 0.2 secs when comparing the two. That is very impressive and I can’t overlook that stat. Same stretch of road, 1 hr spart, same gear. I am still compiling more test results to get a better average but so far, Roc does ROCK. i will be making another post about it soon.

#2

Don’t worry about hating AZ - forums can’t be all things to all men… and the real men are here. That is a great set of data, thanks for sharing!

#3

Thanks bangoman.

I will test the shit out of the new pulley GIAC has whenever AWE decides to send him one. Taking forever.

All I hear is 18 psi, crazy top end… Don’t know if I believe everything I hear. The computer/vag cable and vbox show us some of the truth ;D

#4

good stuff tsivas. All good data gathering, and its pretty much impartial although you do sound like you’re doing lots of explaining on APR’s behalf at first blush, and I bet AZ people will say that. When you look at the data though you’re highlighting a few things about the APR car that doesn’t show up in some of the data. Such as the Iraq:

  1. the 60-130 info is kinda useless because we all drive our cars from 0-60 50 times a day and from 60-130 almost never. In that 0-60 range, the APR puts a beating on the non-pulleyed cars, but if we used a 60-130 as our benchmark, we wouldn’t know that. This is why EPL tuned Tial guys stick to the 60-130…they look good up there, but the people who buy the Tials and EPL tuning end up wondering why they’re losing races to their buddies. It’s really a silly benchmark that only looks at one half of a performance car…the half that we almost never use.

  2. APR is protecting the engine timing wise, GIAC is in the middle, and REVO is throwing caution to the wind. I imagine APR could step that up a little and stay safe as long as you’re using really good gas. I would like to see an APR PetroCanada/Sunoco 94 file. I bet it would put up good delta vs. their stock 93 file.

  3. GIAC cars are pulling loads of timing (even in great cold conditions) and they are still a good bit lower than REVO…but the REVO cars are not pulling nearly as much timing even though they are mapped for WAY more. Knock sensor sensitivity adjustments most certainly can be an explanation for that. APR has said they don’t touch stock knock sensitivity which is interesting. Looks like GIAC doesn’t. Looks like REVO does.

  4. Nowhere to go when you’re at the ceiling…the APR pump file leaves a little timing on the table and their race file race file has makes that bump. The REVO pump file looks like the APR RACE file. What on earth would a REVO race file request…bent rods? Roasted pistons? Anyone have any experience with that? :wink:

Tsivas want to know something that would be interesting? Take the engine torque maps, average them out to come up with a smoothed number for each car. Then convert it to ft-lbs, then map it and use the ft-lbs / 5252 x RPM to make an HP curve. Free dyno chart. I did this on my RS4 a while back. It came out to something between advertised crank and dyno wheel horsepower on the RS4 if a stock RS4 makes 420 hp crank and around 325 whp on most dynos. I am not sure how it is calculated by the ECU on the RS4 v.s the B8 S4 though.

http://audirevolution.net/addons/albums/images/744079309.jpg

#5

“I would like to see an APR PetroCanada/Sunoco 94 file.”

That would be really cool if tuners started doing that. 81bear - game?

#6

Thanks saki… Guess it does sound like I’m explaining APR stuff…Didn’t intend to… I am not biased at all.
In fact I recommended GIAC to pete. He was hell bent on REVO.

I have done that HP/TQ calculation before… numbers just come out so high. but here is plot comparison

http://i350.photobucket.com/albums/q421/tsivas2727/screenshot_17.jpg

#7

ROFFFL Saki… please read the AZ thread. I quoted some of your post above and now it has turned into me being asked if I am you. Wow. I didn’t know you had that influence on me.

#8

Everyone has their conspiracy theories as to what “alias” saki is using since he’s banned!

Back on topic, I love how much boost you’re seeing. And it’s still early days. I’m sure Arin is lurking with a grin knowing whatever sauce APR have got coming next.

#9

Sure I’m game but is APR? Maybe Arin will chime in but my guess is not… no money in it really for them…

#10

So… something had to go catastrophically wrong with the testing of the awe/giac pulley right? It only was announced 8 months ago ???

(not trolling… just very interested ha!)

#11

OBVIOUS TROLL IS OBVIOUS!

I don’t know what they heck they are up to. In the domestic world, a pulley is for sale 44 seconds after a car with a blower is launched. This is just weird.

#12

Yep waiting for a while to test one out. I will def be one of first to see what’s going on. Half people on AZ don’t even know how to clear a code on vag com.

Been hearing “18 psi…etc etc.”. I doubt it’ll be much different than APR setup up top.

Way too much heat to do anything with high boost and timing together. And based on the timing pull I see on his car… they best be lowering it up top with the added heat that comes with 17-18 psi.

they told Pete two weeks. :stuck_out_tongue: Delay in manufacturing or something.

Is 2 weeks the line used by everyone ? lol

#13

Used to just be APR

The funny part about that was they ( apr) wanted to supercharge a 4.2 S4 back in the day. Unfortunately they pre announced it before getting anything done…which left everyone ravenous for the kit because there was no jhm v8 revolution back then…just shit tunes and restrictive catbacks and open intakes that made you slower than stock…all from turbo tuners who were stumped by the v8

Apr brought in a member of this site to help them with the kit. He said “use x blower and do this with cooling” and they went and spent a fortune and came back and said “ok we tried to use y blower instead and the opposite of what you said for cooling, and its not working, so if we send some of what we have, can you fix it?” (gross over simplification)

They kept telling the forum two weeks and two weeks as everything got delayed (it wasn’t delayed. it was done. It was just going to be twelve thousand dollars for basically 60 HP which they knew wouldn’t fly on a $44,000 when new car).

In the end they scrapped the project and ate one if the most disgustingly expensive shit burgers we have ever seen in Audi tuning. Big props to them though for knowing better than to just force it out.

VF and PES weren’t so noble. After copying the Apr Eaton m90 kit, they went ahead and sold their kits, and when that wasn’t working, VF paid a member to put the kit on his car and promote it on the forums, guerrilla marketing style. They will never be welcomed back in the S4/RS4 world as a result because they fleeced people with tricked up dyno sheets and unrealistic expectations and promises.

#14

Hey Tsivas, Nice work as always! Was curious if the Revo car Pete is refering to on the below AZ post is the one that went 11.88 60-130? He is stating it went 3.56 0-60… Is this the time stated on the readout, my guess(saki’s as well) or is he just making shit up again? No way the file reads that time! I find it hard to believe that my car did 3.84 0-60 and 11.06 60-130 on an 11.8x pass with a 1.6x short time… So the Revo car would do a 1.5x 60… Come one man!!! He is so full of shit… Also, like how he is going to take this car to the next level by doing mods that have been done for over a year by a number of us… Wonder how his times were at the strip this year? Must have missed the posts on those? Not taking it out on you just hate seeing all that misinformation spewed… It is vendorzine though so I guess I should expect it… end rant

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/481006-Updated-Vbox-list/page7

#15

Thanks Ron…

LOL… no didnt see thread. must have been on screen of vbox… the screen errors all time.

I just loaded up file through on laptop… (Revo, DSG)

0-60 3.88s
0-100 9.12s
Quarter mile… 12.26@116.87

The Revo car is running pretty good in cold. -1930 DA

Did another run

0-60 3.92s
0-100 9.15s
Quarter mile… 12.30@116.89

His pops was running a full tank of gas though (saw it myself) and the dude weighs 240-250ish.

That 11.42s 60-130 is flying also. 0% decline. Car hauls ass for sure.

your best run I had

0-60 3.84s
0-100 8.74s
60-90 3.35s
60-100 4.86s
60-120 8.62s
60-130 11.06s
20-130 13.67s

Data I just pulled from his run (Revo, DSG, pump, AWE exhaust, Injen intake, -1932 DA)

0-60 3.88s
0-100 9.12s
60-90 3.64s
60-100 5.24s
60-120 9.12s
60-130 11.42s
20-130 14.54s

Compared to run he did last year without exhaust and intake/worse DA…

Revo Stage 1 93 DSG (DA -1000)
MODS: Tune only
0-60 4.09s
0-100 9.36 secs
60-90 … 3.63 seconds
60-100 … 5.25 seconds
60-120 … 9.15 seconds
60-130 … 11.87 seconds
20-130 … 14.83s

#16

Thanks! just as I thought… No doubt strong time with the 11.42! DA is helping massively as well as the stupid timing Revo cars run… Any logs from those runs, I assume they were on pump gas? Would love to see timing in that cold weather with the Revo tune… Thanks again! He is already getting called out by the handful of people who know what is what on that forum… Paperishplastic is being his usual tool self…

#17

I can log his car on a -2000 DA night. I usually know if it’s gonna be a good night if DA is -1500 by 4-5pm lol.

We have had a string of high pressure/33F nights that have helped drop the DA a ton.

I am sure peak timing is in 25-26 range, maybe more.

He wants to run again with quarter tank of fuel and similar conditions.

#18

at least one person that calls him out for obvious bullshit will get labelled a hater before sundown. Mark my words. That site is all about not hurting feelings with no regard for facts.

This one…is a little different!

#19

Sounds good Tsivas and thanks for posting up the facts on vendorzine… About what I would guess on timing as the Revo pushes about what I do on the 100/104 tune… tick tock tick tock… Wonder what the 100 tune timing is??? Anyone? :stuck_out_tongue:

Saki, Of course I just hope it’s not Tsivas ;D Then I will feel bad I brought it up… Although I doubt he would care much…

#20

Nah I just told him we don’t use the vbox screen as reference. He’s ok with it.

Once Pete gets the damn pulley I will try and do a winter vag log comparison between the three.

Don’t know why AWE wouldn’t send him one as a beta tester…