I think I know the answer I will get, but I still appreciate the opinions here.
To recap, my S4 was stolen a few months ago. Thread is here:
http://audirevolution.net/forum/index.php?topic=2473.0;topicseen
Got a good deal from the insurance and trying to figure out what my next car will be.
The size is not a factor, I’m actually looking at the 911 because I want a smaller true sportscar after the big S4.
Thoughts?
big?
Talk to Maddog, he should have some good input for you. I bet he wishes he had an RS4 though.
Soo sorry to hear about the car. The big question is what do you want the car to do. Porsche = not great dd
I know, others may not agree but to me a 4,000 lb, 4-door sedan is a big car. Especially when compared to other 2-seater, sub 3,000 lb sportscars.
Car will be a DD with occasional track, drag, autocross and canyon duty. Also note that I live 0.7 miles from work, so really this is a DD that will get very few miles and be around for fun weekend drives.
Also looking at these two because I will have to drive in the snow from time to time and AWD will really help. I know… GASP at driving either of these awesome cars on salty roads, but I believe that cars are meant to be driven.
Curious though… why wouldn’t the Porsche be a good DD? Only thing I can think of is the price of repairs. A good point on that, I work on all of my own cars, so short of engine rebuilds I will be keeping them up. I did my own timing repair on my S4, not afraid to turn a wrench.
I found myself considering the transition to a 996 or 997 as well. After all I already have a two door. I felt the transition would be seamless and straightforward. For me this wasn’t so.
From a mechanical standpoint, the Porsche is just as needful if not more then the Audi would be. Working on the Porsche appears to be a hassle unless you have a lift.
I’d say that there’s little chance you’d ever find yourself thinking how great it would be to take a several hours road trip in the Porsche where’s the Audi is a joy to drive in both short and long distances.
There’s tons of performance options for both. You’ll need to beef up the motor if you push the hp no matter what car you choose.
The last though I’ll leave with you was a quote CV said to me that made lots of sense when I asked about the performance future of the S5. I think it’s exceptionally true in the RS4 or 996 situation. “you can always make your car perform and handle like a Porsche. You can’t ever make the Porsche more like your Audi”.
a 911 is a great car, but a 996 is a bit old now. It’s rough, it’s a bit clunky, it’s superduper dated on the interior (bluetooth wasn’t invented yet for perspective) and all around I think it will be a car you love, but grow weary of having to drive every day.
The RS4 is a little bit of a 911, a little bit of an A4 diesel family sedan, a little bit of everything really. It does nothing perfectly but it does almost everything well (except save you money on fuel)
I think getting a 911 turbo, especially an 11 year old one, is a good idea for a second car. Not a daily driver though. In the world of supercars, it is likely the best daily driver from its era. BUt when you compare it to stuff like the RS4, C63, M3, and other 400+ hp sedans it’s a distant last place for DD duty.
I had the same choice, and it was pretty simple. RS4. I drive 6 miles to work every day so my list of prospective cars included R8 4.2, RS5, old RS6, C63, E63, M5, and a few others. The RS4 won even without the AWD being a huge factor. IT’s a cool car.
Some people coming from a S4 find that the RS4 doesn’t speak to them.
Go drive both.
Huh? The RS4 is basically everything an S4 owner wants right out of the box. Especially guys coming from a b6. That is just my opinion, but it’s a hard car to pass up.
996 would seem like a downgrade interior wise for the b6. Great performer but personally I think I would want something newer if I was going to make that jump.
I agree. I test drove an RS4 while I still had my B6 and I completely agree with the above.
It’s funny, I test drove an RS4 when I had my S4 and was underwhelmed. It was basically equal with my S4 speedwise. Handling was definitely better. Looks were awesome and quite a bit better. But overall I thought ‘meh’. Not worth $30,000 difference.
My S4 had JHM tune, downpipes and exhaust at the time if that helps understand the equal performance thing. It went 12.9 @ 107.7 in the 1/4 mile which is faster than 90% of the stock RS4s I’ve seen out there.
However a couple of years later, I knew I was going to need a clutch/flywheel job soon…and brakes, and I wanted the Porsche Brembos that JHM sells…and I wanted to lower the S4…and when I looked at it, I was paying another $5,000 to $7,000 in order to still own an S4…and at the same time a local dealer had an RS4 CPO come in. So I checked it out, and when I factored in the financial aspect, and the lower depreciation that I anticipated on the RS4 due it its low volume, unique combo, and the lack of a B8 RS4 for North America and it actually made some sense to buy the RS4. Strong clutch/flywheel (because it was low miles), already had 8 piston brembos, already lowered from the factory vs. the S4. It was an easy decision. Now that we know the strength of the engine, it’s icing on the cake.
And as we’ve seen the RS4 is not maxed out from the factory for NA mods at all. My car picked up a good chunk of performance with just exhaust…and as we saw from Mistro, even more can be had with tune and LW parts. Here’s the performance scal from my point of view.
Stock S4 13.8 @ 102 (various cars)
JHM Bolt on S4 12.9 @ 107.7
Stock RS4 12.75 @ 108.3
Exhaust RS4 12.51 @ 110.5
Full bolt on RS4 12.21 @ 113.3 (mistro’s car)
Kinda neat to see the progression
You would think so, right? But people looking to upgrade S4->RS4 have come away disappointed with their test drive. I recall reading that these people put the RS4 on a pedestal, had unrealistic expectations, and ultimately found the RS4 too similar to the S4. Their loss.
Great numbers listed above. One problem is that I’m at 4500 ft elevation. Which is another reason that I’m leaning towards a forced induction car over the NA RS4. My wife’s stock 335xi destroyed my JHM bolt-on B6. 14.77 vs 13.9. Not fair. That’s why I would only consider an RS4 here if I was planning to put a supercharger on it.
Two totally different cars. I guess I’ll throw my input in, since it was literally a decision of mine this time last year.
I basically have 2 “second” cars (Jeep Wrangler lifted on 33" & the S4 at the time, now modded 996tt), but even when I had the s4, it had effectively become a “second” car due to the amount of mods I’d done. All my cars could be dd, and will be my dd for weeks at a time, but I wouldn’t necessarily recommend them to someone as a sole means of transportation or necessarily cost effective.
I came from a jhm s/c S4 as many know, and my personal goal (if I were to change platforms),was to realistically be able to run mid-low 11’s and mid-high 120s while keeping it fairly simple. I also wanted to be in a platform that felt relatively stable in the sense of depreciation as it is effectively a second/toy car. I felt if I couldn’t get enough for my car, or didn’t find anything that excited me, I’d just go built motor and be done with it. But I didn’t really want to go that route as I had already grown tired of the car and even more tired of working on it as I’d done everything at least one.
Thus far I’ve been very happy with my transition. And while I love the RS4, and may own one possibly, I’m very glad I personally went with the 996. It’s SUCH a different car, and so much more of a sports car. Even ignoring power, the turn in, braking, general feedback/responsiveness (even as a stock car), is so much more than my modded S4 ever was. Now the S4 with headers was just viceral from a stop, and I miss that greatly as well as the exhaust note, but walking up to the 996tt in a parking lot, or garage, or taking it on a backroad is just such a different experience. The 996tt was an iconic super car when I was younger though, and there’s certainly some appeal to me in that regard where a RS4 was just the competition to the M5.
As far as DD / Reliability / Cost of ownership, I’d say the 996tt is actually cheaper and easier to work on in many regards than the S4 (my insurance even went down a couple hundred a year from the S4!). The motors are known to be pretty much stupid bullet proof. Stock power was 420crank, and many take it to 700hp+ crank on stock motor without much worries (and even then they swap head studs & rods and run to 900-1000crank with oem heads and pistons). Spark plugs are easier to change than the S4, no timing chain issue, AC system is much better designed, it utilizes a true dry sump oil reservoir, obviously rings etc were built for boost, gas mileage is the same. However downfalls are when stuff goes wrong, there is definitely a porsche tax for parts and labor. I just “pinned” the coolant lines as that’s the 996tt one’s weakspot (lines were sealed with glue and degrades over time, can pop out due to this. No certain mileage or age needed). But there’s a shop in ATL that I’ve heard charges $1400 for motor drop, pinning of all the lines, and re-install. So pretty good deal and knock out a bunch of other stuff while you’re in there.
As far as power and modding per $, there isn’t much comparison other than boost vs NA. Stock is 420hp, but it’s a very subtle and smooth power delivery for a turbo car (think of the average buyer of the $135k car at the time. Most were DD businessmen or porsche enthusiasts that hardly drove them). You can go with a simple tune and exhaust and get rid of the lackadaisical power delivery and pick up about 80hp. Or the next option is, a tuner over christmas had a special for a tune, injectors, and upgraded billet turbos for $3k, then add $1k for used exhaust, clutch for $2k, have a shop do all the labor and pin the lines for $2500-$3k, and you have a car that should be around 525-550whp/575-600wtq and effectively just bolt on mods. Turbo swap & IC and you’re now at 625+whp, but diminishing returns obviously start to kick in.
General 1/4 times fall around:
stock: 12.5 @ 114
Tune + Exhaust: 12.0 @ 118 (~$2.5k)
Billet Turbo Pkg: 11.5 @ 123 ($6k + labor)
There have been billet turbo pkgs run 11.0/1 @ 128-130 though with addition of Meth/racegas and other bolt ons with a good driver. But I’m trying to provide conservative avg numbers, not glory runs.
Turbo options galore range after that with guys going for 1000whp+, not my fancy.
Now the platform is definitely aged, and the 996tt is the bastard child of all porsche’s due to the headlights & first watercooled. But it doesn’t bother me. However, I do feel the platform is relatively stable price wise which was a selling point to me. I don’t see it dropping too much more. It will always bee a 911 turbo after all. The interior is dated compared to new models, but I actually like it. It’s pretty simple and straight forward. I did an iPad mini w/ 3g in my center dash (common porsche mod) and it works great. I throw on google maps, or pandora, etc. It really updated the interior to me, and made a great interface as well. And to be honest, after having this 996, my next itch may be to go backwards even further to an older porsche.
I hope I get past the desire for performance, as I love a lot of “classic” cars. I’m not street racing or the such, I just love the feel of getting thrown back in your seat and rowing the gears. One down side of adding power though, it becomes ever increasingly difficultly to actually use it. 2nd gear on the 996tt goes to ~70mph, and 3rd gear goes to ~110. So its tough to get even 1 shift in a lot of places. Also, the porsche community isn’t nearly as much fun for me. Much more people talking with their wallets, or hardcore race driving. I’d love to track the car, but not at that point. Thus not many backyard mechanics or people who really want to educate themselves on the platform. Guess the RS4 isn’t terribly different though, save a couple of the active forum guys.
Maddog - I really enjoyed your reply. + karma for such a thoughtful and well crafted post. 
I have a problem going on rants lol. It’s well documented. And I’m not discrediting the RS4, I just know on this forum the strengths are very well documented. But thanks.
no comparison of RS4 to 996? Mostly S4 to 996…
I haven’t driven every Porsche model out there (only 3 actually) but in all 3, I didn’t really like their power delivery.
Guess I need to test drive more of them
But we all agree that they are very similar. So…
if 996tt > SC B6
and
SC B6 > RS4
then 996tt > RS4