Time to upgrade your spring/shock combo. You’re pretty much on the bumpstops in that picture 
Thanks also for your input. That sells it for me.
IE: No front bar for me–especially if you’re noticing it’s still reluctant to rotate off throttle with the larger front bar. It’s expected, but thanks for confirming!
why do people always talk about trail braking in a 70" wide 4 wheel 4 wheel drive car. Is stability really that much of an issue? Seems a bit geeky.
I’m by no means an advanced driver, but trail braking appears to be the preferred technique to take a corner the fastest, regardless of the car. The B8 rotates mostly under power, so you can always adopt a slow in fast out philosophy, but even then there are turns that are too small in radius and the tire scrub becomes nasty when you are hammering the gas in 2nd gear.
to take it the fastest? I thought it was more for stability to ease transition from braking to acceleration.
You can see the difference in rear bar thickness here (I have ADS for what it’s worth)
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5348/9298191627_f7a879792c_b.jpg
This piece also made a big difference IMO
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5522/9266932717_ef662787ce_b.jpg
My understanding is trail braking is a way to get more entry rotation, you are keeping the weight forward making the rear end pretty light, so once you start turning you should have the back-end swing out. Plus you are entering the corner faster than you would otherwise if you were straight line braking.
The way it was explained to me is there are certain corners that you need to do it to avoid scrubbing too much speed. I think an example is turn 2 at Laguna Seca.
But honestly trail braking can be pretty scary if you take a turn too fast, because you really can’t misjudge things…being too hot and at the limits due to your turning is an easy way to throw the car off the track. I personally wouldn’t use this technique with a turn that could handle more than 40-50 mph.
Great thread. I’ve got my JRZ RS1 suspension with 500/650 lb springs en route from the Netherlands. Should have a solid review by the end of the year.
Trail braking is actually for instability. Sorta.
Trail braking keeps weight on the nose as you turn in, so you increase front end grip while transfering weight from the back. This helps with on-entry rotation.
The quicker you can get the car pointed to the apex, the sooner you can apply power. Trail braking in most cases is the fastest way.
Dang, that ADS rear sway is pathetic! Ok surely, you got more rotation out of it the car afterwards
I purposely avoided ADS so that i’d get better stock balance. So I have the 21.7mm rear bar. I’m now questioning if a 24mm rear bar alone is a big enough difference. Wish I knew the spring rates of the bar. I can approximate it with some calculators though…
I’ll run some quick calcs based on the stock bar and report back actually. I’m curious now on the different bar rates available for our car (21.7 vs 24 vs 25.5 vs 28 etc).
What difference did you find with the AK?
Also oops…didnt realize you already responded to the trail braking topic
In practice, trail braking is simple. It’s simply how slowly you release the pedal. Trail braking = compress your braking zone (threshold braking) + slowly release the pedal as you’re turning in.
The rear bar on the RS5 is pretty skinny too.
And yes, trail braking is definitely to help rotation. It also keeps the front tires a bit more planted while initiating the turn. Once you’re aimed for the apex, you switch to maintenance throttle, and depending on corner, start applying power while unwinding (I typically let the car’s momentum track the car out instead of using steering - that’s where knowing how the car handles in certain conditions comes in very handy - and it’s loads of fun! Steering input is straight but the car is still shifting sideways). Then there’s throttle steering too which is a lot of fun on the sport rear diff. I only use the steering wheel to initiate the turn, and after that, its a lot of throttle steering.
Ah… I’m excited to hit the track again. Will be at Laguna Seca in a little over a week!
I’ll see what pics I have on the RS5. If not, I’ll be at that race track in November (and can have someone take a pic at the same spot).
Haha, well I guess there’s always something I can upgrade…but after paying for the factory adaptive dampers and the H&R springs + install…I’ll probably just wait till I wear these dampers out. I run them stiff on the track FWIW Then either koni yellows or real coilovers. By that time I really hope to have a dedicated track car (M3 - either e36 or e46…or a miata :o). Plus, you get an error code without the adaptive dampers, I believe you need a $400 termination kit to deal with (haven’t seen a DIY that fixes this).
About the rear bar, the length of the arms also effect things, you get shorter lever arms and thus higher spring constant. Good luck getting spring rates from EC, ask swank about that LOL
The AK is a fantastic upgrade, really made a big difference on the street after first installing it. Makes the whole steering system feel more immediate, no real other way to explain it.
ok wow, you lowered the car on stock struts?
ADS damping abilities aside, there is very limited bump travel. Did you end up cutting the bump stops any?
You will probably find a lot of time after you swap them out for something more suitable (and even way way way more time if you switch to a dedicated track car like the bmw’s you’re mentioning!). Careful with the BMWs. I used to track one and there is a lot of work they need for just basic trap prep necessities.
Thanks for the input on the AK. Now you are making me want one lol.
As for the sway bar rates, I can calculate those. I just need measurements. I’ll make guesses based on the dimentions of the stock bar. I just need to get under my car and start measuring. Will report back!
I did not do the springs install myself, so I’m not really sure. FWIW, I’ve never felt any kind of impact in the suspension, likewise, the drop is pretty mild. I find the ride to be harsher than stock, especially with the dampers set to stiff. I had a chance to ride a long with an e92 M3 racecar, and it actually exhibited similar handling characteristics during some of the fast sections of Gingerman (suspension bounce etc). I just assume this will wear the dampers quicker and probably throw off the jounce/rebound curves (since it’ll no longer be centered properly).
You really think the BMW’s are tricky for track setup? I’d think they are pretty good to go out of the box for such an old car, much more than a B5 or other car from the late 90’s. I’ve read about the subframe issues and RTAB problems, but the e36 M3 seems to be like a great car to learn serious track driving on. I’d prefer to grab one that has already been used as a track car, minimizing all the cost of getting it going. But I don’t want to be trailering it around…ideally install a hitch and tow in my own tires + tools.
Here’s the M3 I got to ride in, instructor was drifting it in pretty much every turn (but correcting quickly) ;D
drob23,
The problem with E36 chassis, aside from RTAB and subframes is the following:
- Engine mounts crack
- Engine torque actually pulls on the power steering lines and they like to burst on the track (happened to me twice)
- It fuel starves at half tank
- It oil starves in stock form
- Oil pump sprocket can fall off, as the nut holding it on is only torqued to 10ft/lbs (you will need red loctite or something similar to take care of this)
- Driveline mounts are so soft that the shifter gates become misaligned under load (increasing chance of moneyshift)
- Rear shocks can punch through rear shocktowers due to a lack of reinforcement
I had purchased parts to fix all of the above problems in my E36. A wonderful, amazing track car. Actually, certainly one of my favorite cars. But as you can see, out of the box it is not meant for serious circuit work Bimmerworld (a race team) actually makes parts which address all of the issues.
Glad you arent sick of the loss of bump travel on your stock shocks. It’s going to be an issue mainly on the street anyways…on the track, you can be on the bump stops, and can cause sudden under or oversteer (depending on which end hits the stops first). Likely, only an issue on tighter courses.
E92 is a good car too, but not my cup of tea. Real easy to drive. Also, no torque. So you can be ridiculously aggressive with throttle application. Sounds and looks nice though. Sounds like your instructor is a rocket
Thanks for the post and insight into the e36. I’m planning to run the S4 for a while longer on the track and then think about something more dedicated. Any reason the e46 M3 would be better disposed for track duty? This is kind of the car I really want. But the real M motor means VANOS issues and other motor problems…not to mention the subframe issues.
E46 is better. At least no oil starvation issues.
You have the subframe issue you mentioned, and the vanos…and you’ll still have money shift issues (tranny mounts will fix that). E46 is really a refined E36. Underneath, they are strikingly similar.
Now, back to S4 talk. Does anyone know of an available rear only swaybar other than H&R?
Statis doesn’t count bc you must buy their springs with it!
Eurocode, or GMG.
Yea, that car was a monster. Boro would appreciate this one, the driver was an older chap
which had this sticker on the rear windshield ;D
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5584/14867574297_ac0c1ebb79_b.jpg
Wow Shaun, didn’t think you’d start posting here!
The red S4 in the video was me… I swear I felt like I totally forgot how to track shannonville that day… couldn’t get my brake points straight… ??? ???
Shaun did 2:06.3 in a stock car, and I did 2:06.8 in a modified car. No excuses, Shaun is definitely the better driver here! However, I was pretty happy with my time considering I have only tracked 1/4 or less of the time Shaun tracks!
One thing that really surprised me was how well a stock S4 performs, I didn’t expect a stock S4 to be getting such times.
As for the BBK, I didn’t boil my fluid, but my braking style is definitely different and more progressive than late braking, and I did feel some brake fade. Through out the day I worked on being on the brakes less and i was fine afterwards.
It was definitely a good run, I look forward to next year at mosport again.