He did try meth on top of 93 tune and 104 tune and ended up settling on a 100% meth + 104 tune setup. AFR looked great on his dyno plot (which actually surprised me, I thought he would get too rich running 100% meth without manually pulling fueling out of the map). These cars obviously have a nice fat AFR control range.
You did.
His IATs and AFRs were fantastic on the dyno pulls with the meth+ 93 on 104 tune. So how will race gas alone run on a race gas tune have an advantage?
People are throwing W/M and meth around like it’s exactly the same thing.
how is that octane vs. octane + meth?
Prime is on 110 and a tune that is for 104+. Other guy is on 93+meth and a 100 tune.
Are you trying to be this obtuse?
Results posted: “12.4 no meth, 12.3 meth, 12.3 meth and 12.1 on race”
Doesn’t seem like a big improvement.
I’ll make it as easy as possible to understand.
I was using the term octane to represent race gas level octane (didn’t think it would be this hard to understand). With race gas you just get higher octane. With 93 + 100% meth you get higher octane PLUS the cooling properties of alcohol.
How is just using race gas “better” than 100% meth on top of pump gas?
Also, Jones is on a 104 tune, not 100.
we were comparing these two guys…not theories on what fuel is best.
It was primetime vs. the other GIAC guy. Based on what I know about primetime running a special race file from APR that was written for the guys runnign EXCELLENT fuel, and based on primetime’s results (and GIAC’s results) I said a) it’s a nominal gap if anything and b) I give primetime the edge as the APR tune is just flat producing better results.
You can talk about octane all day…it’s not going to change the parameters of the tune even if he runs unicorn horn. There’s more in the APR tune than there is in the GIAC tune. It’s just flat better.
Don’t forget that I run the quarter mile list on this site. I see what everyone runs with every configuration. The GIAC files haven’t touched the APR files at any level. Seriously, not at any level. Not race. Not 93. DEFINITELY not 91. Nowhere.
EDIT: your boy just ran mid 12s in what is likely about 700 feet of density altitude. Wow…groundbreaking stuff. Gee what was I thinking saying APR race+ will win. Can’t wait to watch him try to run down primetime who goes 11.7 in his sleep in DA like that.
Exactly.
Pump gas vs. Pump + meth = almost no gain. We’ve seen a tenth in it as the cars get quicker from making more passes, so the variability there just shows that meth did just about nothing to his ET. What were the MPH? Probably 113-114. Then he went race gas+meth and picked up 2 tenths over pump+meth? Wow that cooling is really dominating. Can’t believe how amazing the results are. Oh wait…B8 S4s usually pick up 3 or 3.5 tenths going to a race file vs. a pump file. He picked up 2? ruhroh.
Don’t get why the bald summers are getting blamed. Last time I checked bald summers are pretty good for grip on a dry smoothe surface. What would he prefer…some nice deep channels to get some air instead of tire on the track?
Holy shit. Strawman much?
I simply asked you to elaborate on this statement that was very vague, and you jump down my throat. You didn’t specify super special APR tune vs GIAC crap tune.
"Meth + 93 on a race tune vs actual race gas = nothing (i would give advantage to you actually)
Simply stated it sure looks like a comparison on fuel used on a similar/same tune.
Then you say this…
Only possible advantage is if he runs abracebfile and runs the same fuel as you but also runs me for cooling. Otherwise I don’t see the advantage.
Which further indicates to me that you don’t know the in’s and out’s of methanol. Who the hell runs meth on top of race fuel? Also, what the hell is “abracebfile”? I assume a race gas tune of some sort.
PS - I could’t give less of a shit about the APR vs. GIAC cockriding that goes on in this community, and this Jones guy isn’t my “boy”. I just like to see people innovate on a platform and meth injection is definitely a feasible option for someone wanting to run a race gas tune without having to constantly run race gas in their tank.
Interesting he went 100% methanol. I would be worried about the O2 sensors compensating and canceling out the methanol injection entirely - obviously not the case…did he log AFR? Still low 11s?
In terms of “octane”, so to speak, I’m surprised to just learn that methanol, when blended, contributes a “blending octane number” more like 130. FWIW this means 15% methanol blending will supposedly raise RON from 94 to 100. It’s all on the methanol institute’s site, have a look. This also assumes his upstream injection properly atomizes.
All this is surprising since methanol has less than half the heat of vap of water.
I don’t think anyone here is doubting Prime as the favorite, hell, it’s your race to lose Prime. Tell me when you go, I’ll show up if I’m anywhere close…ok? I like the track out at Sparta and its been 15-20 years since I’ve been there.
Bald old street tires will always have awful traction, not only because they are hardened, sometimes out of round, often different diameters inside-to-outside which instigates squirm and wheelspin when loaded, but because there is usually little to no rubber thickness to allow any bit of conformance between the tire belts and the road (which isn’t ever ‘smooth’). It really doesn’t matter at all if the tire has more of the ‘appearance’ of a slick.
J, He is planning to come down my way on either Sat. Oct 12th or Sat. Oct 19th… He went last Friday in Canada and ran 12.1 @ 116 on 104 tune with 93 and meth… He has old tires that he says are spinning… Also, he notes that the DSG tune from GIAC is having the 1-2 hangup that Austin assured everyone wouldn’t happen and had 5500RPM shifts… Someday I hope I can get my DSG to perform like the almighty GIAC tuned cars :
Ahhh. That’s too bad…if you guy were up here I’d slap on the RE-11s/peelers on his car. Hope your brother holds the camera steady!
Here’s my run with bald crap tires (they actually corded and shredded the next week).
Shifting at 5500…look familiar? Also check out the wheel hop.
PT… After you’ll run see if he’d be open to allowing you to make a few hot lap passes with his car… I would be interested in seeing how it performs in your hands… I assume the 1-2 hangup he is referring to is the same as what we have experienced… If so, it can be avoid by doing a mini burnout during pre-staging… Based on what I’ve read it leads me to believe he hasn’t run down the strip in the S4 all that much… Still in for results!
Is it just me or did he run 12.28 @ 112.99 on 93 alone, and then he turned on the meth and ran 12.23 @ 113.92?
So his meth kit on the 93 tune picked him up 0.05 seconds and added 0.93 MPH? Surprising because in 700 feet of density altitude I thought the meth would help him a bit more. You’d think the car would want to be pulling some timing that the meth would recover for him.
Then he threw it on the race tune and it went 12.17 @ 116.25?
So he’s picking up the normal MPH gain with the race tune (around 3 MPH), butt jack shit for ET. In fact if his launch was as bad as he says, part of his MPH gain is attributed to that, so he’s really only picking up what is likely 2.5 MPH vs. straight 93. Something not right. I guess he said he was spinning. His splits are all fucked up. Must have been really crap in the first 2 gears because he looks like a stock B8 early on. Or a GIAC 91 B8.
On another note, which time should we add to the database? I was thinking the straight 93 makes the most sense. Then the 93+meth that used the GIAC 100+ file.
When you run race gas you would ideally want to see the result when you’re tuned for it, not when you’re still tuned for 93. His 93+meth run on the 93 file is a similar story…kind of an irrelevant benchmark since he eclipsed it immediately after when he had parameters that could take advantage of the meth. I don’t think anyone runs racegas with a 93 tune (when there’s an option to run 100+ tune)…so not sure anyone would care what he ran with meth on but not with parameters to take advantage of his pseudo octane.
What do you guys think? Add 1+3, 2+3 or 1+2+3?
Saki, Yeah way too much going on with his car to say what is what IMO… Worn out tires, DSG tune issues, meth, etc. I think we will have a much better read on the car if he comes down and races me at Thompson same day same track… Not overly impressed with the results so far but again, with all the “issues” who knows… As for the times I say add them all as it helps with the sample size…
yeah, I will add them all. Just wondering how I differentiate between the 93+meth on 93 tune and 93+meth on race tune.
It will look like two of the same setup because under octane, I put what was in the car, not what tune.
so 93+METH is what it will say for both. Guess I could put a note 93 tune and 104+tune in the MiscMods section
Perhaps add a column for what map is being used? You could also list version (might help with keeping track of APR V2 versus V1, etc.).
That might be an idea (column for which tune it is).
Doing a note for what version is too cumbersome. For example JHM now makes 130 changes to the ECU on the B6/7 S4. They used to make about 75 changes. Then they kept adding and adding to it over the years. There are literally a dozen revisions. That would look pretty funny.
APR is on something like version 6.
I wish they would tell us when they’ve made a change. Without being too specific they could say “hey in the past 6 months we’ve made about a dozen changes and feel like there is some worthwhile gains to be had for those on older versions of our tunes”.