Some fun speculating...

B8 S4
#92

btw, it’s 7000 for the DSG at current, 7200 for the 6MT.

No disrespect to JHM (lol I have to say that), but I’m not a fan of centrifugal chargers. I’ve seen them come and go over a decade ago in the mustang crowd, now everybody runs turbos. If you know how to match the flow curve to the motor, you’re basically getting the worst of a turbo (needing a lot of compressor RPM, and thus motor RPM, to get any PR) and a supercharger (robbing lots of engine power to drive the compressor).

One thing centrifugal chargers are, is cheap…I’d be a little apprehensive about paying anywhere near $10,000 for a centrifugal…has anyone seen what similar centrifugal intercooled kits go for when it’s the domestic crowd? For $5K you can get a full setup with injectors and tuning.

The 1320 in the RS4, to me, is a gross mismatch. People try to relate supercharger size with displacement - they’re always wrong - it should be sized for airflow. Consider that the 1320 is used on the cobalt motors to make 350-ish whp when tuned to the max, and wonder why it ever went on the 4.2? Any other blower would be an improvement on the 1320 in that application…

I’ve started threads about the TVS1900 ages ago, flow curves and all, and all people were saying is “it doesn’t fit under the hood” lol. I sure hope it comes to this platform, and no doubt it will work ridiculously well on the 4.2.

It will have to be pulleyed down a little on the 3.0T, since I’m sure otherwise it will melt itself trying to force 2.3 PR into the motor at lower RPM. And, like Saki, I’m not too sure about the 3.0Ts chances at anything over 475-500 whp on the stock bottom end (and true wheel hp, not dynapack lol). By my guesstimate, I think the injectors will max out around 550 whp anyway…

#93

j, IMO, cfug blowers have their benefits and are very good for drag racing if paired correctly… My GT made enough tq downlow to cut decent 60’s and get in the power band/boost(4500+) quickly and stay there with the right gearing… On the street if you were in the wrong gear and couldn’t get into boost quickly it was basically a full bolt on NA motor… I knew how to drive it but you had to keep the r’s up there… They wouldn’t work on the 3.0 motors… Not enough experience with the 4.2 to comment but it would probably make a good drag race car but tougher to drive fast street car compared to a turbo or PD blower…

I’ll take 500 AWHP in the S, with DSG gearing and shifting that is one bad ass ride… Not many street light to street light losses…

#94

You haven’t owned a 4.2 motor 8E Audi I guess so you may not be up to speed on the difficulties…its a little more complicated than a foxbody Mustang. Turbos would be ambitious for a few reasons.

The biggest beiinefficientficientits of ths cfuge are that it doesn’t need intercooling necessarily at this level, and the next beiinefficientficientit is that it doesn’t need much room. That is important because there is none in the 4.2 engine bay…and your turbo idea requires a good amount of plumbing for two banks not to mention intercooling…and not to mention a turbo kit will require an engine pull. JHM SC install is 10 hrs labour with a front bumper pull in your garage.

as for cost, thats an odd comment when your tune cost you $1500 lol. Your beloved tvs 1900 is a $4500 kit on the Cobra. On your b8, apr will ask for about $12,000-15,000. We all live with deutsche tax!

For what B8 guys will pay for tune $1500, pulley $500, exhaust $2500, intake $800, HFCs $1000, and lw wheels $2000, an RS4 will get a supercharger kit. That JHM rs4 owner will likely make 500-550 whp…and will put up probably 15 mph more trap speed than that B8, even though stock for stock, both cars started equal.

I think I know what $8500 spend sounds better to me. Also a cfuge at big RPMs is a great fit.

Your comments about the 1320 & the RS4 are bang on. It is terribly undersized to take advantage of the RS4 4.2 with forged internals. APR wanted a nice kit that was safe and that fit comfortably. They were advised that if they wanted to use a sixth gen twin vortices blower they should use the 1900. They went with the 1320 for whatever reasons. Considering the competition, PES and VF, were using an Eaton m90 from 1990s V6 domestics lol…the bar wasn’t too high and the 430 whp 1320 was a nice bump.

#95

Yeah Prime, my brother only has one mustang left, the '94, with a centrifugal, Paxton, with full ported GT40 heads and intake, off-road cam, it behaves exactly as you describe. It runs 11.1 at 122 on drag radials, but yes, it gets launched hard, it loses a second on the 275 street tires he normally runs (same trap). He was floored when I could beat his street tire times with the S4. As for on the street, it’s not all that bad when you already have a 400 hp NA motor with lots of torque down low to start with, but agreed, a centrifugal would be awful in our platform.

Sorry Saki, I didn’t mean to lead you that I implied that RS4s go turbo, I was just saying that’s the way the mustangs went after everyone dumped their huge Novis. But Audi did it before with the 4.2, turbo that is, albeit in a bigger chassis…IIRC they actually had to change the engine compartment in the C5 RS6 for it to fit.

i was just implying that with the TVS, the roots blower has gone so much beyond the older Eaton crap and whipple chargers…the ease of getting the B8 down to rock-bottom 12s with (in my case, less than) $1500 and a couple hours in my garage was awesome. We’ll see how much they can push with the 1900, but it won’t be cheap.

I agree the deutsche tax (lol) sucks, I will no doubt point it out whenever I can, about whomever is making well more than their fair share, be it JHM, APR, or your favorite other supercharger peddlars. I’m sure I’ve already mentioned the story of Roush, but a couple years ago they were recently giving away their first lot of discontinued TVS1900 kits for the Chevy (gasp) truck…at cost - less than $2000. Apparently Ford got on the horn with Jack and demanded to know what the f–k they were doing making parts for the other guys. Anyway, gives you an idea of the severity of the Deutsche tax when APR will tell us $12000 for the TVS1900.

BTW, you will NEVER catch me using the word b3n3fit here, lol one day I want to find the n3fmoto thread that put us in this situation…

#96

hahaha I even wrote n 3 f m o t o with the 3 in place of the e…still censored.

test section:
n3fm0t0
iinefficientficientm0t0
sneaky
iinefficientficientazodone

n-e-f-a-r-i-o-u-s changes to “sneaky”, but it should at least change to evil or wicked to keep it proper. If you add spaces, n-e-f-a-r-i-o-u-s simply disappears.

#97

I don’t see a problem with the DSG not being able to hold that.

I look at the DSG that is used in the Transverse engines (2.0T, 3.2) and people are putting 2-3 times the power through that thing with no issue. Most are just doing flashes and I think only 2-3 people (that I know of) have actually gone through the effort of upgrading the clutches. I will be interested to see what my 2.0T that I have sitting on jackstands will do when I get it to the dragstrip. I have done an LSD in it so that helps significantly. Running off N75 it should do its thing with about 420whp. I am fairly confident that from the limited driving I did in this car moving it from the shop to my warehouse that it is faster (minus of course traction advantage of the quattro) than my S4 but only getting it out and doing some runs will tell and will probably only be seen in a higher trap speed.

I would think that with a flash that the DSG will hold at least 500awhp on the S4 if not more. The flash for these transmissions actually upgrade the clamping force and even can shorten the shift times. There were so many rumors surrounding the DSG when it first appeared in the A5 chassis and none of them came to fruition. The only think we are missing is a DSG tuning solution and I keep hearing that APR is possibly working on this. I think they would have to have a solution for higher HP applications down the road.

I still would love to see this motor setup with a large turbo. I am sure that will happen at some point in the future.

#98

Wait…what?

2-3 times the base level horsepower of a 2.5T? So 350 hp x 2 = 700 hp and 350 hp x 3 = 1050 hp

Last time I checked that’s not happening anywhere on earth…nor has it been happening long enough to say it is doing it ‘with no issue’.

Let’s see what Audi says…

Audi 320 hp A6 3.0T = DSG
Audi 420 hp S6 4.0TT detuned = DSG
Audi 520 hp S8 4.0TT not detuned = TIP
Audi 560 hp RS6 4.0TT not detuned = TIP

Those cars are all under-rated by probably 5-8% when you factor in a little sandbagging, and that the ratings are based on ‘recommended minimum’ octane, even though many of us can run the car on 93-94 octane, while many markets can’t get more than 91.

Audi makes the decision on what the transmisison can ‘handle with no issue’ based on reliability over the long haul, knowing that they will have to buy you a new transmission in 4 years if yours shits it’s pants. APR and whomever else…well I am not sure they are offering a DSG warranty with the stage III kit.

500 to the wheels = 600+ hp…a.k.a. nearly 100 hp over the level at which Audi said ‘no more DSG…use the TIP’.

#99

2-3 times the stock horsepower of the 2.0T not the 2.5T. I didn’t mention the 2.5T anywhere in my post.

I don’t think APR would put out a warranty with anything, I’m saying they are working on programming/tuning is what I have heard, now whether that’s true or not that’s another story.

And yes for daily drive-ability and long term reliability of course audi is being conservative but people here are talking about strapping the TVS1900 to the 3.0TFSI and from a tuning and modifying perspective I have no doubts that the DSG will be able to hold significantly more power given the track record of other DSG transmissions and their potential with tuning. Look at a 10 second golf R with APR’s stage 4 setup. It runs DSG with no problems. Also other FWD dsg cars are deep into the 11’s (maybe even 10’s) with the 2.0T with trap speeds over 130mph.

I am certainly not an expert in these areas but my experience with the DSG up til now both from my own and others is that these transmissions are quite capable of holding significantly more power than the limits set by the manufacturer.

#100

Yeah, but 2-3 times the stock 2.0T horsepower does not mean that you can go 2-3 times any other car’s rated horsepower. The DSG in the 2.0T may just be way over-engineered because it is an upmarket applicaiton on a downmarket car.

i.e. they build the transmisison with tons of upside, then use a bunch of that upside on the way through the model lineup. Eventually they run into a ceiling and back off on the S8/RS6.

stock 2.0T makes 258 ft lbs of torque, right (torque is what we should be looking at)? (it does in my 2.0T B8 A4 Avant). So 2-3 times that is 500-750 ft lbs of torque (i.e. 400 wtq-625 wtq). Are any of the 2.0T cars really make those types of numbers? I ask honestly because I don’t know.

Stock 3.0T S4 makes probably 350-360 hp/tq…and with a TVS 1900 blower pushing 500 whp (not on a generous dyno either…that blower can make 500 whp on a tough dyno) and 450 wtq, that will mean something in the order of 500-550 torque at the crank.

The stuff on APR’s page mostly shows golf stage 3 kits making 400 torque at teh crank (unless I have misunderstood their graphs). can’t forget they weigh 800 lbs less than an S4…so the power to weight that allows them to do these great things does not necessarily translate to what the stock parts can handle when extrapolating based on quarter mile times etc. i.e. to trap 117 in a B8 S4 you have a V6 + a maxed out supercharger + race gas + a long modlist and you’re making likely 380-410 WHP and 370+ WTQ. To do it in a Golfyou’re making crank numbers like that.

#101

Absolutely and I see what you are saying so don’t get me wrong there.

From what I have read the ZF DSG in the longitudinal applications is rated to ~440lb-ft of torque. The transverse DSG was about 260lb-ft. (there is a new transverse unit for the TT-RS) The big rumor surrounding the original DSG was that the transmission would blow up at those levels (aka with a chip alone) but nothing has happened. I think the torque curve is more important than the actual numbers alone. The 2.0T you are referring to in your A4 is also different and has more torque than the longitudinal setup found in the A5/6 chassis (a3/tt/mk5)

With all that said, 500wtq has been done and he’s not the only one…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=st0GGf8kc4M

Obviously there is a breaking point, I just don’t think its as low as some are speculating and when that’s reached someone will upgrade the clutch packs! (and that will probably be when there are a lot more options and tuners in the game) Seemingly the worst that has happened is the clutch packs starting to slip and cases of the unit overheating but audi has already aided in the reduction of that problem by having two different oil circuits

And a 7 minute overview of the transmission from ZF if anyone wants to watch it…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cd10wif87Qk

#102

Cool.

The ‘ratings’ mean very little too. Someone on the OEM side told Me most everything on these German cars can be pushed to 150% of OEM levels comfortably. Its one of the reasons the cars cost so much…they are heavily overengineered. If only they could overestimate some epic reliability into the equation!

Looking forward to SEe what happens. At this stage I am starting to think you guys won’t even get stage three before half of the current B8 guys have sold their cars. Many have already sold and pioneers like 81bear and Jspazz are already hinting at moving on.

P.S. Speculating that a 40 whp/wtq bump from a tune will kill the Trans means someone in high school with no money to fix a Trans is making fear based guesses. Reality tells us that is never going to happen.

However making double what the car came with stock, and making more than the cars Audi didn’t feel comfortable using the transmission in…that’s a whole different story. Don’t forget we have already seen a few B8 S4 guys with transmission problems after getting tuned and running race gas files and pushing 450-475 crank torque…at least one if whom is in this forum. Lets not assume those were just ‘unlucky’. They are likely the highest power Audi DSG cars we have seen so far.and the Trans have had their share of problems. I don’t remember hearing tip transmission guys destroying transmissions on 400 whp B6/7 S4s.

#103

The tiptronic box in the C5 RS6 was a weak point iirc.

#104

Power wise? I.e. it would grenade?

Or just that people didn’t like it and its slow shifting and power sapping qualities?

#105

Tsk tsk. Saw this on the zoo

[QUOTE=ilspazzaneve;8262982]Allegedly supposedly there is already a member here with an S4 with the stage III blower and intake module on the car.

But it’s unlikely you’ll see him talking about it here…

Everything else in this thread’s a tease, but I don’t lie (much).

http://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/public/@pub/@eaton/@per/documents/content/ct_127899.gif
[/quote]

#106

Shouldn’t you have copied that on the “lulz” thread hahahaha…how do you “quote” threads (to copy them) without an account? :wink: I would love to know who you are on AZ now, you know I’d never tell (no matter how pissed off you get me), but would be hilarious to see your posts…maybe I’ve already seen them…!

Anyhow it was said in the other thread…just reporting the news.

#107

You can just copy text and use quote tags, don’t need an account

[quote=jayawardene]Like this
[/quote]
Hybrid name

#108

yeah, with the thread number and everything…lol…

I know what you “can” do, I’m implying what you do…:slight_smile:

#109

gotcha. No secret.

Anyway where is this supposedly, allegedly, purportedly already stage three car? Is it someone who will test the car for us or is it someone who will just pull the usual?

Arin should likely be first, no?

#110

PP said in the Eurotuner thread that its already on Arin’s car, yes. Arin contributed in that thread but didn’t deny…it’s been a long time since I’ve emailed Arin (stage II beta I guess at the beginning of the year), but I’m sure he scans these threads…

My one-of-a-kind ‘assembled in Canada’ S4 still has a rash of problems to even think about stage II right now let alone stage III. But it’s nice to keep up with the rumours…and I’m sure Arin scans these threads…I’m mostly curious if its indeed the 1900 and if they put bigger intercoolers on the intake module…

#111

will be interesting to see what happens.

I hope the rumours about the S4 getting it well into 2013 are true (selfishly) because that means it will already be launched on the 4.2 FSI cars.

Seems a better business case at first glance to launch it for the S4 but I’m not sure. APR built a supercharger for the B6 S4 and ditched it because it didn’t work as well as they had hoped delta wise (they chose the modest sized Eaton M90). Then they created a TVS1320 kit for the RS4 and didn’t bother with the S4. I always found that weird. I guess they didn’t want to have to re-engineer the entire fuelling system and intake etc. It worked on the S5 though.

Anyway, maybe the more expensive RS cars, while rare, mean they can charge a serious premium for the product (they sold PLENTY of TVS1320 kits at $18,995)? Then they can trickle it down to the S4/S5 3.0T after a while?

All guesses. It would make sense to me, at first blush, to launch it for the 3.0T guys but the other side of that is that there is zero competition (as far as a stage 3 B8 S4 3.0T kit) whereas the RS4/RS5 world is about to have a few big supercharger options launched.