how are they making 300 whp with 2.4 litres of displacement and no power adder? On pump gas?
Damn looks like they do make around 300whp. You have to replace a crapload of parts but people do it.
Here’s a dyno of one on e85:
http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2623974
Apparently if you replace more internals they get a bit over 300whp on pump. No torque though lol
Lol that’s what’s awesome about hondas…the B series was the hot rod of the 90s, K series the hot rod of the last decade. Basically, the heads in these motors can FLOW, it can take a lot of cam…the combustion chamber can take really high compression too. There is so much to learn from these motors, and parts are cheap as fuck. You don’t need E85 to get 300whp from a K.
BTW Sak the Cayuga lap record for years was held by a K-motor car.
Is it an RPM thing? i.e. are they revving to 9800 or something?
sure… RPM + flow will give great numbers N/A…
E85 on high compression internals, with enough RPM and flow (cam) is how they make the power.
E85 isnt the deal maker. Hicomp big rpm with a camshaft profile designed all for higher rpm will do it
Just like meth injection wont yeald any gains on na cars E85 for na cars is the same. The useful part of e85 comes in its ability to remove heat more so then its higher octane. I see people all the time saying oh oh but with E85 I can run 35deg of timing on my ls1 or less powerful lt1…that high degree of timing isnt helping make more power then standard petrol @ 28 Deg…different fuels require a different time scale to burn them. More ignition dosent equal more power…a good example is…and im not making fun of them im using what we have seen as an example. Giac made race files for the b6 s4…they were a huge flop…actually on a regular basis you would see much lower hp on there race files…you would see a small bump in lower tq but much lower peak hp…why…too much timing…
That’s exactly what I said already :
[quote]E85 for na cars is the same.
[/quote]
LOL WUT?
[quoteThe useful part of e85 comes in its ability to remove heat more so then its higher octane. I see people all the time saying oh oh but with E85 I can run 35deg of timing on my ls1 or less powerful lt1…that high degree of timing isnt helping make more power then standard petrol @ 28 Deg…
[/quote]
WTF are you talking about… The whole reason to CHANGE fuels is to get closer to MBT. Race gas, and E85 will let you get closer (sometimes in the case of E85 even surpass) MBT. The closer you run to MBT the more power you will be able to generate from the combustion cycle. End of story.
[quote]More ignition dosent equal more power…
[/quote]
Considering almost every car on pump fuel is knock limited because of the fuel, switching to E85 or race fuel and increasing the ignition timing will give you more HP. Of course the gains that can be had on low compression (ie. optimized for pump fuel) are much lower then having a cam’d and high CR motor with better fuel.
Still your whole post is completely flawed.
You just showed us you onow dick about tuning…good to see ur google lessi9n has paid off
Better fuels help when you need them. People like you read sbit 9n google that some other dude wrote and because he had a graph your johnny on the spot now. Also I wasnt dissagreeing with you on the hicomp hi rpm thing. I was saying yes…
.[quote] Considering almost every car on pump fuel is knock limited because of the fuel,
[/quote]
You dont even know what your talking abkut…how do you pose to even try backing this up…its totally wrong and amusing to see you make stuff up to help tell your tale of google search results.
To help keep this moving forward ill simplify this. Better fuels when needed produce better results. There is no sence arguing with me even tho ive tuned hundereds of ls motor cars on a dyno on every fuel emaginable… it’s not me but the other top tuners in the domestic world that push the limits of tuning well beyond what most see. The larger mass of actuality hardcore invested tuners have shown what b6joe has said…now b6joe is on domestic forums I assume due to his refrences…please see his quote…putting in race gas on a na car vs decent pump say 93 isnt going to yeald an6whsre near what it will on a t7rbo or supercharged car… so e85 c16 they help but not enough to male a difference enough to seitch full time
I don’t know what I’m talking about? Coming from the guy who can’t even put together a properly worded sentence that’s rich.
At the end of the day, most modern motors are high enough in static CR and breath well enough that they are knock limited in output by the fuel you are using. If you don’t agree, go ahead and prove me wrong… I’d love to see how you explain that 87 octane will make just as much power as 93 or race fuel.
If you’re talking about ancient 8.5:1 motors that are tuned to run 87, then I can see you might have a case, but that isn’t the argument here at all.
Let me ask this undoubtedly uneducated question (then again, that is why questions are asked).
Can the me7 tuned for pump gas adapt to fueling conditions that will see any positive results by mixing e85 and pump? My guess is the short and likely long answers are no?
Other platform forums like BMW, dsm, domestics, etc…forum members and topics indicate it can be done successfully
Typical responce you want me to dissprove the point you cant make…yet you contine to keep making over exagderated points and then in the last sentence you give a dissclamer but say this isnt what we are talking about…
As I said may before you have looked into what your thinking. On a na motor mors timing isnt more power adding different fuels changes the curve of whats needed ignition wise. There I snt a big gain to be had on na cars with race gas or E85… most domestic tuners will tell you switching over from petrol to E85 might get you 5hp more
It can… but there are limits of course…
The fueling will adapt using the fuel trims… obviously using too much Ethanol will mean you will start to reach the limits of the adaptations and throw a CEL and possibly go into limp, run lean, etc. depending on how far you take it.
As far as ignition advance is concerned, if you have an overly aggressive tune on pump and you add Ethanol which is extremely knock resistant (so much so that usually the only way to tune it is on a dyno looking for TQ drop off), your ECU will adjust and start to put back timing until it reaches whatever is in the map (usually will be conservative for Ethanol). You can however start to offset the main ign advance tables using lemmiwinks, but again you can start to see that it is just not the correct way to go about this.
Easier would be two have to separate tunes of course.
[quote=“ChrisK,post:32,topic:4265”]
So wait, you don’t have any personal experience with any of this is what you’re saying.
Thought so.
No
This is my end goal
I think he said that good 93 fuel vs. E85 will be a nominal (if any) gain on an NA car. Running loads of timing isn’t an endless supply of power. Just because you’re not into knock, you’re not necessarily making more power. In fact it can make less power.
This is not limited to NA cars. A supercharged B8 S4 owner on this site found this with the REVO 100 octane tune. Ridiculous timing resulted in being slower than a more moderate APR 100 file. Or ironically, the REVO 93 file. Another user found the same thing this past weekend running the REVO 100 file.
Crazy octane to allow crazy timing does not necessarily always equal power gains, knock or no knock. You can be on the good side of knock, with loads of timing and loads of octane to keep you on the good side, and you’re no faster than a pump gas file and a tank full of good 93/94.
How bout shitty CA91?
[quote=“NOTORIOUS_VR,post:34,topic:4265”]
Yes I have years of experience with this I… I knew you knew
That is a blanket statement.
[quote]Running loads of timing isn’t an endless supply of power. Just because you’re not into knock, you’re not necessarily making more power. In fact it can make less power.
[/quote]
If you’re not into knock, then the car is not knock limited by the fuel obviously. Again, you’re agreeing with what I said.
[quote]This is not limited to NA cars. A supercharged B8 S4 owner on this site found this with the REVO 100 octane tune. Ridiculous timing resulted in being slower than a more moderate APR 100 file. Or ironically, the REVO 93 file. Another user found the same thing this past weekend running the REVO 100 file.
[/quote]
Poor tuning is poor tuning. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t gains to be had with higher octane fuel. Especially on forced induction cars that see higher then avg. cylinder temperatures.
Many times people thing that running leaner with more timing will make more power because lean is mean right? There are plenty of cars out there that actually like a richer mixture. Also important to note that the AFR’s that most people tune by (downstream in the collector/downpipe) is an average.
[quote]Crazy octane to allow crazy timing does not necessarily always equal power gains, knock or no knock. You can be on the good side of knock, with loads of timing and loads of octane to keep you on the good side, and you’re no faster than a pump gas file and a tank full of good 93/94.
[/quote]
No one is saying anything about crazy timing. No one is saying that if you run higher octane fuel you should add “crazy timing”
What I am and have been saying is that IF the motor is knock limited by the fuel you are using, you WILL make more power by going to higher octane fuels. It’s not rocket science. If you’re not knock limited on pump of course you won’t make any (substantial gains).