Starter Issue

B8 S4
#1

So . . . I’ve been dealing with a lingering issue on my car the past few months, which has now finally been resolved. Thought I would share my experience in case any other B8s (especially tuned B8s) have similar issues.

Around the end of February, my car began having problems starting. When pressing the ignition button, all of the electronics engaged per usual, but there was no connection to the engine. See, e.g., this crappy iPhone video: https://vidd.me/nFn

However, after about an hour or so, the car would revert back to normal, with no issues starting. I had my local Audi dealer look at the car on two separate occasions, and both times they could not diagnose the issue (nor even replicate it). The car was throwing no fault codes, and they were at a loss. Since I am tuned, though, they told me that any further diagnosis would require an ECU replacement, which of course would not be covered by warranty. Rather than pay $2000 for a new ECU, I had mine shipped to APR for inspection, and APR’s technicians found nothing wrong with it. Consequently, I took the chance that perhaps this was just a fluke issue and had the dealer reinstall the ECU.

It wasn’t a fluke. The problem occurred yet again last month after I had driven out to the suburbs to have my summer tires installed. This time, however, I noticed a pattern. The problem seemed to arise only after the car was driven for ~ 30 minutes or longer. Short trips around Chicago didn’t trigger the issue. So I took the car to the suburban Audi dealer and told them to keep it until they fixed the problem.

As I feared, this dealer as well told me that, to diagnose the issue, they needed to rule out the possibility that my ECU was at fault. I even had the ECU flashed back to stock, and that was not sufficient. Audi simply would not work with the dealer any further until the ECU was replaced. The dealer did note that once the ECU was replaced (on my dime), my warranty would kick in again.

At that point, I spoke to CountVohn, and we basically concluded that replacing the ECU was the least bad option. Even if, for example, CountVohn was able to properly diagnose the issue (which he did not think was ECU-related), I would still have to pay the dealer for the repair. On the other hand, by replacing the ECU, all further diagnosis and repair would be warrantied. So I decided to go that route, mostly in an effort to just bring this ordeal to a close.

As expected, the problem had nothing to do with my ECU. Here’s the dealer’s diagnosis:

http://i.imgur.com/ThCfig0.jpg

So the starter was at fault, and it was replaced under warranty. I am now back to the stock tune, and I’ve decided to keep it that way until my warranty expires later this year. Costly process for sure, and obviously very, very frustrating.

I do want to thank CountVohn, sakimano, primetime, and Jake@JHM for all of their insight. This forum truly has tremendous resources, and I appreciate all of the help they provided. Arin@APR was also very responsive to all of my questions.

Hopefully no one else has this happen to them.

#2

Oh btw, I have a perfectly good ECU lying around in case anyone is interested. :slight_smile:

#3

Weird how it would only happen after long drives.

#4

^^ ya it was odd. This guy appears to have had the exact same problem with his Camaro:

http://www.nastyz28.com/forum/showthread.php?t=156946

#5

I wonder if the starter was overheating and going offline in self preservation mode. Only thing I can wrap my head around why it would only actuate when the car was cold.

#6

A colleague of mine gave his son a B8 A4. He had solders crack on the ECU, and took a while to diagnose properly. APR repaired it free of charge, but it was a painful process to determine the root cause.

#7

Brandon, Glad you finally got this resolved and can enjoy the car… Still would leave a bad taste in my mouth that you had to buy a new ECU to diagnosis a starter issue… I know you didn’t cover the starter costs but do you know what the total would have been? If it’s less than the 2K you paid for the ECU I’d call AOA and at least express my dissappointment in having to buy something that in no way was associated with the issue… I bet the tests they did to determine the bad starter could have been done with a tuned ECU… I wouldn’t call it a bait and switch scenario but still not cool… Personally, I’d rather have paid for the starter and labor and still have a tuned car but that’s just me… Also, so now you are 100% TD1 clear? If so that at least helps a little but now you have to stay stock to keep it…

#8

Clochner good to hear there was good resolution despite the cost.

When I think of count von and ecus I think of neo and the matrix with those green numbers

#9

Data - I had APR inspect the ECU, and they found nothing wrong with it. I even had APR flash it back to stock, and that still wasn’t sufficient for Audi’s purposes. Sucks.

prime - ya man I’m really sour about the whole ordeal. You’d think it would be common sense to check the starter for faults if the customer says he’s having trouble starting the car. And while I don’t know how much the parts/labor were for replacing the starter, I’d bet it was less than the cost of a new ECU.

My predicament, though, was that the dealer would not move forward with diagnosing until the ECU was replaced. And I would likewise have been on the hook for whatever an indie shop would have charged me. This way at least my warranty has been reinstated until its expiration later this year. Might as well play that out in case anything else goes wrong.

Arin mentioned to me that APR’s dealers are now able to flash via OBD port without the need for ECU removal. So at least that process will be quick when I get tuned again.

Also, I guess it wouldn’t hurt to call AoA. Maybe they’ll see that this was completely unrelated to the tune, and a replacement ECU wasn’t necessary for diagnosis.

bango - thnx, man. And ya, CountVohn is a incredibly knowledgeable on these things.

#10

That sucks, Brandon - sorry to hear it.

I had a similar situation occur with my first A6 2.7T. It was misfiring and throwing codes, and the dealer blamed the APR tune for damaging the ECU, even though the tune had been done more than 2 years before the problem occurred. In the end, I got them to swap ECUs with another used 2.7T they had on the lot, agreeing to pay for the repairs if the problem turned out to be the ECU. The problem remained after the swap, THEN they diagnosed bad O2 sensor(s?) and repaired that under warranty. Frustrating, but at least I wasn’t out the cost of an ECU like you are…that’s just lame.

#11

How would you know it was the starter? That’s the point.

clochner is a professional living and working in an urban centre. The dealership is in a suburban location an hr away. Here were his choices

  1. tell Audi to button his car back up, give it to him still with a fault and undiagnosed, and find an indy shop who can hopefully diagnose it. Cost? Who knows. A few hundred to the dealer. Another $1000 or so for the starter and install by the new shop when they eventually diagnose it, but who knows if they’d have done so that quickly? So net result is he is out $1300 or something and has no warranty and is still tuned.

  2. do what he did. Cost is $2000+a couple hundred for other costs, and he gets a new starter installed and has an Audi factory warranty on his car for another couple years. Anything else that goes wrong, he is covered while under warranty, and if he wanted to be APR tuned tomorrow, he could I’m sure go to his APR dealer to re-instate the tune.

So really he paid MAXIMUM $700-900 (the indy shops could have fucked around for longer/more misdiagnosis) for a guaranteed sure thing fix, and he has his car back today, and for that money he also gets a warranty for his powertrain.

I’d say it’s as clochner put it the least bad deal.

#12

p.s. only funny thing about this is that Audi has a customer come in and say ‘my car won’t start’…and at no point did the Audi brain trust (service techs, manager, Audi hotline) think ‘let’s check his starter’. They myopically honed in on the fact he was tuned.

#13

Lame indeed. I think the bottom line is that Audi is playing hardball on flashed ECUs. Whenever a problem arises that could arguably be remotely ECU-related, the knee-jerk reaction is to blame the tune. Very costly process.

#14

Saki, I guess will have to agree to disagree on this one… What the dealer did was total BS and they took advantage of the situation to sell an ECU and then charge Audi for warranty work… If the ECU had any fault in the equation than I say man up and eat the 2K but it didn’t… They could have diagnosed the car with the old ECU but they made him buy a new one that he didn’t need, that’s ridiculous… Also, given his car is almost out of warranty there isn’t much value in restoring the warranty anyway… A call to AOA in a professional and calm manner explaining the situation is worth a try, and no I’m not one of those guys who blames others every time something goes wrong but in this case Brandon should be given a refund IMO… Brandon is the exact customer AOA wants to keep happy and their dealer is putting them at risk for losing what 3-4 future new car sales over this, so they should know about that…

#15

glad you were able to find out the cause of the issue, but you should have had to pay for the ecu, audi should refund you for that as it was not the cause and they were insistent that that was the cause of the issue.

#16

yeah, I’m hardly defending the dealer. Not sure how that’s what you took out of it.
I was really reponding to this…

[quote=primetime]Personally, I’d rather have paid for the starter and labor and still have a tuned car but that’s just me…
[/quote]
Wouldn’t we all? He just didn’t have that choice. You’re almost suggesting they said ‘OK clochner…you can buy a new ECU for $2000 and get an $1100 new starter job under warranty…or you can pay $1100 and get the new starter right away’

they didn’t

they told him 'we don’t know what it is, and can’t continue to investigate till you replace your ECU.

I agree it was lame of them. unfortunately that’s where his car was. At the end of the day, as I mentioned above, for $700-800 he got a warranty on a B8 S4 for a year or two. Not too bad.

#17

correction: one guy guessed starter 6 days ago!

#18

Should have stuck with my gut ;D

#19

Yep. Jake definitely nailed it on the head! +karma for that. Funny, because that thread I posted above also involved the same issue - with a Camaro no less.

So I guess as a follow up, do any of you guys think that the tune could have caused the faulty starter? I really have no idea if that’s even possible.

#20

I hear you. Plan on giving AoA a call just to see what they say. Couldn’t hurt.