Yes I do believe they are numbers at the crank.
I think a RAM air would really help the 3.0
The 2.5 would be more then enough for the 3.0 the 2.25 would be good as well. I think a good thing would be to look at the V6 mustang guys and see what there doing. Now that I mention it, im going to do a little searching and see what some of there dream mods
^Good point on the V6 Mustangs, just like the 5.0 and 4.6 was a good model for the 4.2
Has anyone strapped a 3.0 to a dyno to get a base for whp. Yes all dyno’s are gonna give different numbers but close enough. Rough guess using 220 crank manufacture spec. should be some where from 180 to 190 but would like to see real results.
I would imagine on a B6 with quattro it’d see closer to 23% DTL, with that, you’d probably be looking at 170whp. Does APR’s comparison graphs not show stock vs modded? IMO their dyno’s have to be taken with a grain of salt though as they tend to read a little high with the hub-based dyno and their calculation method typically showing crank and not wheel. So with that said, have any other tuners not shown gains from stock vs their mod options?
Thats why I was wondering if anyone had done an independent run? I wouldn’t trust the majority of these companies to change the battery in my daughters power wheel let alone tune my car!
What is the average to use for AWD? 15% to 20%, rear wheel, front wheel, IRS, transfercase ect.
30% for AWD
^^ It’s tough to give a true number for DTL. The problem is multi-fold b/c it is all based on the components used, as well as their condition as they age. Our AWD system vs Subaru AWD system vs BMW AWD system could all vary based on the efficiencies of the differentials, weight of components, etc. And then there’s also the factor of new vs old or worn (beyond just parts becoming more efficient by design). The B5’s typically accept around 22-26% DTL, I would say on the B6/7 ~23% is a fair number, and on the B8 ~20-22%. Again, these numbers hold very little credibility, and that’s why really ONLY WHP numbers matter. At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter what your DTL is, it’s what the car makes to the ground, so figuring DTL is really just a point for bragging rights (or selling tunes).
And just to add, RWD & FWD system will be more efficient (b/c there are less parts to put the power through etc), and typically RWD show a DTL of 15-18%, and I think that FWD are even more efficient. This is nice for them, but just something we have to accept.
So, those are my rough estimates. But like I said, they basically mean nothing but to brag about (i.e. trying to figure out what you have at the crank). If you had car that put down a very strong number from the factory, it would make that DTL look less, but if you had a slightly weaker motor, it’s going to make the DTL look very large. That is why it’s not fair to put a stock car on a dyno, see what it puts out, and then calculate the DTL. This is what APR openly admits to doing when presenting their product dynos. And then make mods to the car, dyno again, and apply the same DTL. The only real way to determine the DTL would be to dyno the car to the wheels, and then remove the engine and put it on an engine dyno and calculate the difference. But as you mod, you would really need to do this again as replacing parts with more efficient parts could reduce the DTL (put in better or lighter rotational parts reduces the amount of work the engine does to get power to the wheels thus make it appear to reduce DTL).
A little lengthy, and I’m no expert, so anyone feel free to correct on any improperly stated/explained points, but that’s my understanding.
Ive been digging up some good ideas.
here is what I have so far.
larger throttle body. This one might take a little work but I think it should help.
Piggies for sure.
After market Dp’s without cats, but have the abilty to put them in and take them out.
ECU And TCU Tune obviously to make it all work together.
I want to look at the intake manifold as well. We can do that when were looking at larger throttle bodys
Great, those are the parts I was thinking about as well, especially the IM, it seems really restrictive in stock form. What some people have been asking me about (although they don’t seem to have brought it up here) is lightweight pulleys and cams. Cams is the one thing that a couple guys on AZ have mentioned to me a bunch of times. Thought I’d bring that to your attention.
^With the traditional accessory belt system I think a full set of pulleys would help. The crank pulley on the B6 S4 was a nice bit, so dropping even more weight and maybe a bit of underdrive I could imagine would help more.
Cams are kinda tough sometimes with Audis, factory parts do well with stock heads (such as S8 cams in the A6 4.2)… but some of the aftermarket cams may require additional headwork to take advantage of the extra lift/duration/overlap… but once you get into buying custom cams and built heads a blower may be a more effective option. Just food for thought, I love the idea but with the B6 S4s the aftermarket cams are kind of a dud on stock heads.
I’m glad to see people are (hopefully) going to finally give the 3.0 some recognition.
(and thanks to Justincredible for sending me over here)
I’ll be purchasing a second ECU on Friday to ship out to JHM so they can get to work on this, as I can’t have much downtime on my car.
It’s about time we actually make this a MOVEMENT 
glad to see you were able to find a spare ECU.
How do you recommend we make this a movement?
JHM just responded to my email. He (Keaton, I’m guessing) says that Jay doesn’t really believe there is a market for the 3.0 at this time. I can’t really blame him, I’d personally believe the same, but I don’t think that that means there can’t be one. There are enough 3.0 cars out on the road for there to be a market. I’d guess that part of the problem lies in the reason many choose the 3.0 vs. 1.8t (looking for a middle of the road, but not interested in modding). Keaton recommended (and I agree) that we try to get more 3.0 owners over here on AR to show that there is (or at least can be) a market for 3.0 parts, that way maybe Jay wont be able to ignore that there are people willing and waiting to get their hands on some JHM parts for the 3.0
While I don’t think the 3.0 is necessarily the platform for a SC or TT setup (although nos would be nice), that doesn’t mean that we can’t benefit from many of the same bolt-ons that the S4 does.
I’ve spent hours messaging and chatting with guys on AZ, they are slowly trickling over here, slowly but steadily. I think there’s a new member or two every day. I have to clear out my pm’s on AZ almost daily to keep up. Based on what Count has said there is TONS of potential for this engine, why else would be be willing to get so involved… just looking at it from a technical standpoint it has a lot of good technology that can be exploited for more power.
Bc, just get back into the 4.2 again haha, sounds like you miss it way too much already.
I agree though, you raise some good points and I’m sure Jay or whoever is well aware of the market potential vs time/energy/labor. Not that they’re in it for the money (b/c it’s apparent they’re not) but with how tight they are on time vs projects right now, I can’t imagine the daunting task of picking up multiple more platforms.
Meistah, glad to have ya active over here, and glad to see the site grow, but just make it’s the people we really want over here. It’s not about numbers, having the right people is what REALLY makes the difference.
Just curious, any idea how the intake ports compare to the new 3.0T. I know there aren’t many similarities between the two motors, but I would be interested to hear what (if any) similarities there are etc. If there were any material, parts, designs, etc that were shared, it’d really help development as it could be multi-use.
^^^^
Hell no!
While I love the 4.2 I’d damn happy to be staying away from that disaster-proned engine. It is just too damn troublesome and too damned expensive to replace parts for. Not to mention getting even more expensive with oil prices being on the rise…$100 oil changes every 2 months or so…no thank you. Also, I now have metal-sleeved cylinders - no worries about scored cylinder walls now
I really don’t see the 3.0 as that big of a step-down. It is pretty comparable to the 4.2
Justincredible made this point and I really agree with him, it was one of the first thing I noticed when I bought my 3.0 Avant.
I agree with you guys. There isn’t much of a 3.0 conversation because the 1.8T guys stop any forward progress. I think there is a huge ability for the 3.0 to be a power house. Ive seen what the 3.0 can do and it can put out more then a 1.8T can before you need to upgrade the injectors.
I really believe that this site is going to help advance the 3.0 movement. With us having a place for the 3.0 guys to speak out and speak up, that is the first stage in helping everyone enjoy the cars even more.
So for me having and finding all the 3.0 guys that are interested and bringing them here will really be a large part to the success of the program.
IMHO there is a lot more power and available parts development then even the 3.0 guys know is possible. We just need to get the conversation going
^Just curious. . . If the 3.0 is sleeved, then I’m guessing the block is very solid b/c of this, so how strong are the rods/pistons? Does anyone know, didn’t know if they shared the rods from the TB 4.2 A6 like the b5 guys have? I was just curious what it would take to adapt the JHM S/C to the 3.0 and then build it. If it’s a lot simpler to build, and you just need rods & pistons (if they’re not the iron rods that the TB 4.2 has), plus some port work up top, would the 3.0 not be able to put down a butload of power? Granted headers would probably be needed, and doing the same port/polish that is done to the V8 on the IM would be good, but not a must.
I dunno, just curious. If they have the internals that the A6 4.2 has, then you’d have plenty of space in the engine bay to do the same s/c that the S4 has and could easily be putting down 450whp for possibly a lot less money. . . I know that’s a lot more intense then most are wanting, just saying that could be the next budget build for big power (quite laughable in the german sports car world I know) if the internals are already there.
IIRC the rods are good but the pistons are weak… or vice versa? Lol imagine the irony if this ended up being the next hot tuning engine for A4’s after all this time.
Oh and also… ECU is ordered and on its way to JHM!
I remember that the PES kits even tho there a joke they did make a solid amont more power then stock. That should be a good idea of what the block can handle. Can you guys start to cronical the PES motor failures.