The Stand off. Testing the bentch mark Stage 2+ 1.8T Vs 3.0

B6 A4
#41

Just to touch on what I know about the JHM tunes for the S4, I was told by the tuner that the “93” tune is really what others might consider up to a ~97 tune, and the “91” tune is really more of a ~95 tune. That is to say that a 93 tune will continue to take advantage of better gas up to about the point where you’re running 100 octane. However, the tuning is so good that it senses the poor quality fuel, i.e. 93, and adapts. I think it’s clear that the JHM continues to adapt based on atmospheric conditions, new mods, etc every single day, strike that, every single minute & second! Just most people don’t realize that the base tune is designed to handle much higher octane and still take advantage of it while still being perfectly content “only” running 93.

It was pretty cool to hear that and then you realize, that just makes so much sense! Why would others not follow that mindset?!?! Oh yea, “others” aren’t good enough to even have their tune adapt to new mods without revisions, much less daily conditions and fuel quality.

(not to say you should put crap gas in and let the tune figure it out though haha)

#42

I think its great to have a control sample with the 1.8t. The results will be visual and that’s always nice as long as the same conditions are replicated.
I think it would be even better to see the JHM tune 3.0 vs. a stock 3.0.
Does anyone have the stock dyno numbers for the 3.0?

#43

First I have to say this is really cool reading everyones post I’m learning a lot and I think we are off to a GREAT start! I do however have a few questions…

  1. where do i get 93 fuel? I use Chevron Supreme religiously and its only 91
  2. stupid question but wondernig if you remove the cats what do you put in their place, straight pipes?
    (asking cuz i dont want a loud car)
  3. Can someone make a basic list of these mods, or Stage 1 whatever it is, and put a price est. with them.
    -tune-$
    -spacer
    -cats
    -exhaust
    -DP’s
  4. what are the chances JHM could put together a package for stage 1 or whatever this is
  5. As heavy as our car is after these mods how much benifit would we have from doing some Weight reduction? I’m just estimating but I bet the hood and trunk weigh a lot and CF’s would drop maybe 75-100lbs??
  6. speaking of RWD cars…forgive my inexperience but i remember reading about this one part from Stasis it was a torsen rear differential and I was reading that it changes the amount of power distributed between the front and rear wheels making our cars more of a RWD feel, would this mod be something we should consider because I think they are only like 500$ or something around there.
#44

There’s a pic of the dyno number on here. 160whp bone stock.

And those are a lot of good questions! The packages and stages will get sorted out later, still in the beta phase of the tune right now. Not too sure about your other questions, gas is different up here in Canada. I know in the states shell has 92 and sunoco has 94 though.

#45

Yeah, different gas octanes depend on what state you’re in. Some states 91oct is as high as it goes.

We can get 93oct here in GA and I always use it. I did notice before that at Chevrons the highest they carry is 91 which used to make me mad since the price of “premium” is the same at diff stations however they only give you 91 instead of 93. However for a little over a year now I’ve been getting gas at Shell pretty much religiously and always get 93 wherever I’m at. I’ve gotten it at Shell from Fl all the way up to WV and have not seen where 93 was not available, it’s pretty much just certain states that have the cap at 91.

#46
  1. try shell/sunoco, its good quality fuel
  2. you can either gut the cat and leave the casing, or cut it out and replace it with a straight pipe. If you want it quiet, use high flow cats HFCs.

-tune ~ $500
-intake spacer ~ $100
-catback ~ $650 for the magnaflow S4
-downpipes ~ $500-600 hopefully

so less than $2k to really change up the car

  1. I would focus the weight reduction to rotating pieces first, so crank pulley, flywheel, brake rotors and especially tires and wheels (aim for 37lbs combined, its tough without going 17" though)
  2. the center diff mods work well, JHM does them too for a lot cheaper than stasis. My A6 has the 4:1 center diff and when you push it real hard you can feel a difference… for me pushing it real hard is ripping power slides and donuts lol
#47

That’t an impressive start and great video. I must say I never thought about it but I just always assumed due to the talk that the 3.0 was much much slower then the 1.8T. I supose I was wrong on that. Its amazing to see the JHM chipped car picked up almost 1.5 cars with just a chip.

While power is great its still impornant to have more power on tap when your not WOT. So it will be nice to hear how that plays out.

Talk about the 4.2 as a measuring stick. That’s a big stick. Its smart to have goals and time will show if that is a lofty goal or not.

We had a 3.0 back in the day in at borla and Ill tell you those cars are very resistant to makeing power. we never messed with the cat pipes so that might have played a roll. Time will tell. I just remember how hard of a nut the 3.0 was and exhaust wise we at borla realized not too many people were going to crack it.

For the 3.0 or ANY small CID motor in a heavy car. Rotational pieces are going to be your bread and butter.

Are there light weight flywheels out for the 3.0? That will be a good one for the manual guys.

Lightweight Rotors are a BIG help. Big. The further the rotational mass is from the center of the gravity the more of a power draw it is. So ROTORS are going to be a big help to you guys. I would make sure to look into that.

Also rims are a BIG help. Rims are more expencive the rotors and possibly less practical as a mod.

Rotational Mass: Weight Reduction Where it Counts
#48

Thanks for the rotating mass posts. I was actually going to start a thread to delve further into it. Recently I considered getting a stock b6S4 brake setup, but held off due to the added weight. I know JHM has lightweight rotor BBK’s… Do we have any other options? I think those ones might be a bit pricey for us 3.0 guys… or maybe just for THIS 3.0 guy :stuck_out_tongue:

#49

How much of a help are lightweight rotors? I considered buying the JHM lightweight rotors when I upgraded to B6 S4 brakes (front and rear). I just couldn’t bring myself to spend $1,100 just on rotors to save 25 lbs. Can you really feel the difference?
I suppose they have great appeal to someone who races their car and/or has a larger budget. Has anyone had personal experience with them?
I went with Adams drilled rotors but maybe next time I will be inspired to spend a little more and get the JHM rotors.

#50

yes 1100 is a lot for rotors way out of my budget. I tried looking for pulley setup but I was unable to find the underdrive pulley. I also read that the 2.8 manifold matches up to the 3.0 so I was thinking if we could somehow find some HFC’s or I’d be open to a alertanive setup with straight pipes as long as it wasnt too loud. I figured with a full setup from headers back would be pretty cool. Assuming its true they match up and i’m also assuming they have performance headers available for the 2.8… anyone know more about this?

#51

The JHM LW Rotor’s if you buy all 4 at once is a good bit, but you’re shaving 26lbs total of rational mass. Also, keep in mind that I believe you can buy just the “rings” when you’re ready for replacements and keep the hats you have. If you’re looking to save a little money I’d say just get the front. You shave off 20lbs. with just the two front rotors and they’re the ones that will have a bigger impact compared to the rears.

#52

Good thinking bcsniper. This is why I love this forum, don’t get these kinda thoughts thrown around elsewhere.

In that case we could purchased a used b6s4 brake set for around $300 off of classifieds. you really just need the calipers and hardware, not the rotors. Grab the oem rotors for the rear, and the lightweight fronts, and some pads. Bam you are looking at around $1000 for a LIGHTWEIGHT bbk Although I’m not sure how much heavier the rear s4 ones are than our rears. (s4’s are 13lbs each). I too would like to know the real world effect of losing rotating weight though, I’m not sure if it’s a shave milliseconds off your time thing or a big difference.

#53

While Im not sure if the L/W rotors are even available for the 3.0. The L/W rotors on the S4 make a large difference.

The front 10+lbs each side is NIGHT AND DAY. It is a very noticeable gain in both braking fuel usage and performance acceleration. They really do make the car more nimble.

Sniper is right. You only have to pay the 600$ once. every time after that your just getting the rings and there not more then 150$ with hardware. With the JHM L/W rotors Ive seen a better performance from the brakes.

The L/W mods do make a large difference.

The old saying every 10lbs of weight lost is 1 available hp. Every 10lbs of rotational weight lots is like 10 available hp.

#54

so you’re saying that getting both front and rear l/w rotors would be like gaining 25 hp!?!?!?

edit: Wait… 1 hp for every lb?? that cant be true. I would really like to know the value of rotational weight loss. There must be a formula…

#55

Found this on a google search. Interesting thread on the bimmer forums about rotational weight loss.

http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-79243.html

#56

Well guys this might be best off starting a new post for this one.

Rotational mass and dead weight are two different things and the difference isn’t linear for rotational mass.

Simple test you can do by your self to FEEL the difference.

Take a string or rope make it 4ft long. Tie a 10lb weight to it and try to swing it in a circle while you have it swinging in a circle try to accelerate that to a faster pace. Now add a 5lb weight and do the same.

Rims and rotors are a big difference performance wise. From the point of off line acceleration and acceleration from a roll.

What makes this a difficult thing to do the math on is the distance from center mass and the parasitic draw of other components.

L/W flywheels will help but the faster your going and the higher gears your using the effect on the benefits of loss change. Somewhat the same is true with rims and rotors.

In the rotors and rims Due to the fact that the weight is removed so far from the source of power its a much larger difference. Still there is no direct calculation that covers all the permators on how beneficial it is.

In conclusion rotational weight loss makes for about a 2:1 benefit from dead weight loss in some cases it makes for a 4:1 loss AT X speed and Y load with M request for acceleration

Rotational Mass: Weight Reduction Where it Counts
#57

I made a new post and copied the knowledge you dropped on us into it :stuck_out_tongue:

now more talk about beating 1.8T’s!

#58

I love each RWD, FWD, and AWD each for different reasons. I currently own each and each have different aspects that are better than the other under certain situations/circumstances.
Maybe your “RWD is king” argument holds true in the topic at hand? I live in Montana where during the Fall and Winter months when we have snow/ice, RWD is a FAIL.
Now granted I haven’t ever owned a RWG German car, I have owned several RWD American cars including a few muscle cars. I loved them very much but me personally i’ve always loved driving FWD more. Now that I have my Audi, I love Quattro even more.
The comment I made about beating RWD cars with my MKI GTI was because beating these high HP guys in a little bunny rabbit makes my day especially after they point and laugh at the little GIT because who would race such a little boxy car?
Last laugh is on them! ;D
Bottom line is that personal driving habits and conditions determine whether FWD, RWD, 4WD, or AWD is optimal for a driver in my opinion.

#59

WOW that was a great video…gave me the biggest smile

It is great to hear that the JHM tune adapts to the fuel that you put in, becuase in the land of OZ we have 95 and 98 octane to choose…I run shell 98 (sorry use to run lol)

The goal with my car is not to beat a S4 or a 1.8t (modded) cause they are rare as a clean hooker, but I want to be able to beat home grown muscle. One of my mates has a 185Kw (220hp I think) HSV Maloo (5.0 V8 ute, its an older car) and he constanly tells me how much better his car is than mine and I made the mistake well when this tune is all said and done he will be eating quite alot of humble pie his face will be priceless, especilly when I can lay all that power to the ground in the wet :slight_smile:

Great work again guys keep it up

#60

It really is a great video isn’t it, I can’t wait to see rendition 2,3,4,etc as each part on the car is figured out. Tune(2)+DP’s is where it’s REALLY gonna wake up I believe!

Also, just for reference, (I’m not quite sure where you live overseas) but my understanding is the European RON standard for gas pretty much comes out to be that the European “98” actually equals the U.S. 93, it’s just a slightly different calculation and labeling, but the octane is basically the same (i.e. EU 95 = U.S. 91, etc)