So AMS just stated they saw no change when divorcing the factory heat exchanger from the engine coolant.
My first thought was that they found no change due to their testing environment. I imagine if they did back to back dyno pulls they would find a decrease in IAT’s. But just idling the water temps would be the same due to the SC getting heat soaked from the engine?
Without knowing their baseline and testing procedures it seems like BS.
Also their coolant reservoir looks like ass.
/Rant
They said they will be providing data, so I would wait and see what they provide. Who knows, they may surprise you with the amount of data they collected, or they may not.
The test would be pointless on a dyno.
I remember back when APR first came out with their CPS unit they provided data showing the effect on IAT’s for each component provided (separator, pump, and HE). They since have removed that data from their site but I remember the HE did a lot of the cooling not sure how much cooling was provide by the separator and pump individually…
Its actually the only way you can get consistent data. You are looking for a Delta-T with the least amount of variables as possible. A real world test might show you good numbers and give you a better overall picture. But the Dyno allows you remove all variables to get solid numbers.
So If they show 0-5* change between stock and divorced in a B8 S4 running back to back runs in a controlled environment I will be 100% shocked. B8.5, no idea they might have a different setup I can’t speak to that setup, I’ve never had one apart.
But thats me I troubleshoot building automation controls and look at data logs all day long.
testing intake air temps and a heat exchanger on a dyno? weird. Would love to see the fans.
Yeap, for AMS to be successful they need to do this. APR already did heaps of testing, so I assume they would tap into the coolant lines and get pre/post HE temps, but they used a thermocouple which reads air temps, this makes no sense.
If you tape a thermocouple to a coolant line you will get surface temp this does nothing for you if you are trying to read water temp. Especially on a 4 ply silicone hose.
If I had the time and money I’d do all this testing myself with liquid temp probes, surface temp, air temp… But I don’t have the time or money to do that.
yea i was surprised by their findings. cant wait to see their data. But yea if you look at the cooling diagram for the car, it does seem to support their claims over some possible marketing hype.
Kris, you mind elaborating as to how you reach those conclusions from the cooling circuit diagram? Interested in both the why and trying to decide which kit I’ll be buying :-\
Here’s what just makes sense. The coolant temperature coming from the motor is going to be close to 300deg on average it will be in the 250deg range. The biggest thing we’re battling is heat. If your supercharged and you’re making something called a performance cooling system why on earth wouldn’t you isolate the system so you can control the temperature of the performance cooling?
No matter what direction you look at this not divorcing the coolant system is putting you at a disadvantage. You’re already cooling down an entirely different system in the motor. Even if the kit it pre motor you’re now taking the super hot fluid coming from your supercharger and pumping it into your motor.
I’m sure on a dyno where you can control the fans the environment and conditions you can find several situations where there’s an overlapping condition. It’s not rocket science that isolation of your cooling system allows you to have more control of that system.
I just find it hard to believe sperating the loops doesn’t provide benefit but will see what their tests show… I don’t have experience with the current platforms they participate on but I know they have a good reputation… I know one thing after browsing their site, they ain’t cheap, and all the folks(vendorzine folks) that complain about prices will really love these guys… lol Especially, Roger Federer and Saxon… They always bitch about price so we’ll see how they react… We already know Saxon is their unofficial spokesman through EPL… My biggest concern about them is that they aren’t doing the tuning and instead are leaning on EPL… That to me raises concerns but again lets give them time…
Shady, Good points you bring up on vendorzine… Funny how all the folks hate on you for them… + karma to you…
HA! Thanks, yeah it was hard to get any real debate going on with all the early leg humping. I also found it hilarious that most of the people rooting for the kit are the ones usually complaining of over priced products. As a side note, their reservoir looks terrible compared to APR’s revised version. If the other vendors truly run a dual pass versus tri-pass there could be some gains, but if the pump isn’t flow matched it will be useless. considering they used thermocouple probes to get their delta-T I highly doubt it was flow matched the way its supposed to be.
I am pretty confident their testing wasn’t done correctly. I run into the surface,air,water temp reading issue at least 7 times per day at work. People just don’t understand that getting surface temps isn’t useful if you are looking for ambient or liquid temp.
Anyways, that’s all for me, I am interested in seeing their data!
So here’s my attempt:
-B is the secondary heat exchanger that we know exists on the B8. Or it is the overflow tank? Doesn’t look like a schematic for HE, so probably the tank.
-I’m not sure I understand the function of L (I have no idea about coolant circuit elements, but can infer the pumps and thermostat), assuming this is some kind of thermocouple that regulates overflow? But there is still an un-valved path to enter pipe A.
-The only coupling of the circuits is in the lower left corner, but it seems like the coolant going to the intercoolers (S and U) sources from the coolant exiting B and the S/C HE R.
-Essentially APR and AWE are breaking the connection in the lower left between B and the merging inlet to W, and adding a reservoir there?
Some general comments:
-I think we all need to realize there isn’t one way to do this, as frequently happens in the engineering world, sometimes solutions have to rely on sidestepping patents so you have protection. Not saying the B8 world is a big enough deal, but maybe AMS has a patent on the way they do things…who knows.
I think data is the thing to wait for, and hopefully an experimental procedure. It’s only after that point that we’re justified in calling them out for design. The most complicated solution is usually not the best, even if it seems obvious.
I really hope testing involves some hard circuit driving, since the question of decoupling the circuits seems to rely on the engine operating at high temperatures. Seems like it would be easy to influence results by conducting your test on a cold car (not that it takes long for fluids to get up to temps). Sounds stupid, but I do appreciate when guys like Ron/West/Jeff test this equipment out in the wild with demanding conditions.
Primetime I added to my post. I’d love to get your thoughts. My point is. There’s always going to be a chance for overlapping conditions in ideal situations. No performance cooling system is better than the stock system all the time.
The added gains of the performance cooling system comes when the stock system is taxed already. Conditions like turning off your car at the track or sitting in traffic situations like that and several others that are non ideal are when you’re going to see the big gains and when the divorced cooling system will shine. Basically all things you can’t show on a dyno.
Can’t edit my post, but last paragraph I meant “hard sustained race track driving” (I’m a bad writer who reuses words all over paragraphs lol)…
I think we both made these points in our separate posts. The biggest gains from a divorced system come under extreme conditions where the stock cooling system would already be taxed.
If you look how the coolant cycles, the fluid is coming from “B” the expansion tank going to “K” the main radiator. That fluid cycle is essentially in its own loop for the “engine”.
The supercharger has its own coolant loop with a “W” pump that cycles that coolant. If you look at the pipe that goes to the Supercharger loop it is essentially a tee with the larger pipe being the one going to the radiator.
Since the radiator loop is a larger diameter than the pipe going to the supercharger, there wont be much interaction between the 2 systems.
Well, here is one major question - is the stock radiator and engine cooling system already sufficient for cooling the engine? Using a combination of the radiator, thermostat etc.
We know for sure that the stock S/C HE is not sufficient to keep IAT’s down, especially with added stg-2 boost pressures, but it’s not necessarily using coolant from the engine circuit. It seems like the only way hot coolant gets into the intercooler circuit from the engine is in the case the valve at L opens (although admittedly there is another inlet to A) and it overwhelms the the tank at B. How would one quantify when this could/would happen? I think only way is to see their data…which is hopefully taken correctly (as shadycrew says) and a proper experiment is conducted.
Would be curious to hear what Kris thinks or anyone who knows more about this system or can read that schematic. I’m just armchair engineering the epinions lol
Also in the diagram, there is no flow arrow in that connecting section.
I assume that’s because it would be bi-directional? It’s interesting how there’s no pumping mechanism in that part of the circuit (aside from to the intercoolers).
I’m no mechanical engineer, but it seems like the flow direction/rate in that connecting section will be dependent on thermodynamic interaction of the fluids and based on relative pipe sizing as you said. Seems like it could be pretty complicated.