tial 770's in the 11's!

B5 S4/ RS4
#101

No, tony did not lift. I believe he only has two passes with the car, one he rolled out no launch and ran 11.5 but he didn’t tell me the trap. Tony can certainly bang the gears.

We were both a little unimpresed like I mentioned before. We have some Er’s going on the car, hopefully next week. So we’ll see what that gains us. If I was a betting man i would say about 4-5mph on the trap. That cx racing core is rated for a 5psi drop @ 35 psi, I wonder what it’s actually doing; I bet we are flowing way more air than what they tested at.
Next we will take a look at the exhaust.

If I max wg duty on this setup, the most boost I get is 34 psi and the car runs like garbage, high iat’s ect.

That’s shakedown runs with your single turbo setup right?
Do you have a build thread i could check out?

#102

x2, very interested to see more about the car… I remember reading a bit on qw a while back.

#103

I think that’s a fair post by nycvr6

It should be noted that we don’t know what power this car is supposed to be making. All the tension around the other 600 and 700 whp cars (on the epl and amd dyno) was when they would trap like a 500 whp car. Well who knows what this car dyno’d? I know one of the 770 cars dynod at 034 motorsports and it was right around 500 whp I believe.

At first the epl tuned cars seemed to be the holdback when the only tial car in the 11s was notorious vr (self tuned).

This car is jfonz tuned and was driven well, and trapped 130 on e85. What kind of timing is this car seeing? I have to admit e85 isn’t something we see a lot of up here so I’m not entirely sure but my impression is its as potent as moderate race fuel. Would that be accurate!

Anyway 11.1 at 130 is strong in the grand scheme of things and kudos to the owner and the tuner for working on this and running the car rather than holding up dyno sheets like a trophy. It will be interesting to see what they’re able to accomplish.

#104

Hi guys remember the car is not done yet , let see the new smic , tune , maybe exhaust , more boost etc, Im pretty sure 136+ are not dificult at all on this setup.
I agree regarding to the backpressure test , I can not belive that no one have been able to do it…This would be the key to know the real potencial of this turbos…
Keep the good work Josh , you guys are giving real results and being 100% honest.
Lets see the new info.

Regards.

#105

Thanks JP^

Saki,
The trick with e85 is that it burns slower than petrol so a slightly higher base timing can be used.
To make things even better it is a very clean fuel, not alot of free radicals. Highly knock resistant.
Comparing timing across race fuel and e85 isn’t apples to apples per say.

It’s similar to tuning race gas except the burn is slower and the egt’s are lower. (Good for turbo spool, good for turbo health)
Also stoich for e85 is 9.7:1
so you must be sure your fueling is up to the task.

#106

Thanks for the eplanation. Sounds like a dream fuel for a race car…but is it uber inefficient?

#107

oh yes, compared to petrol, e85 will yeild you about 30% less mpg… roughly

#108

Jude and beem…

yes its the single car, I dont really have a build thread anywhere, just misc posts here and there, I change it slightly constantly so i dont try and keep up a thread.

Break down of the system:
Stock 2.7t long block with 140k miles, rebuilt in house with just rods (665), springs and retainers (rosten) to hold power and revs. I wanted to prove my system on a stock engine for a true baseline. Not even porting has been done. I have a decked out solid lifter 2.9 and a 3.01 block but have actually wanted to blow up this engine, I have not found the limit of the aftermarket rods yet. i do have a rs4 intake manifold that is modified, I use phenolic spacers to transition to small port heads. I have found a flow limit around 40 psi the car stops making more power with boost. this is likely a limitation of the stock heads/ports and cams.

HTA GT3586r turbo with a Tial .82 stainless v-band housing. This turbo is capable of around 750 whp or 1000 chp depending on fuel.

Full tubular manifolds, tuned length, similar to even but slightly off on purpose, I modeled them to have pluses not crash in either the primary 3-1 or the secondary 2-1 merge. The merge pipe is slightly longer on one side to keep the pulses from each bank from crashing.

Tial V44 wastegate to atmosphere. 21 lb spring.

Treadstone vertical core FMIC, mostly 3 inch cold side piping, 2.5 inch for first 1.5 feet pre intercooler. Tial 50mm Q blow off valve pre IC to not cycle hot air. IC is rated for 1000hp with a 1.5psi drop (@1500cfm) but it isnt very good at cooling. I had planned to spray to help AITs and spool, well I ended up having great spool so I never put the nitrous in. My AITs are way too high most of the time so I may switch to a horizontal core.

dual 044s, -10 feed, -6 return. Custom Rail, -8 on each bank. Custom injectors, 960cc @ 4 bar. 88mm Bosch MAF. may go to ID1000s

4’ intake piping, non muffled or catted exhaust.

http://www.vlmspec.com/assets/images/s4/single/sm-4937.jpg

http://www.vlmspec.com/assets/images/s4/single/sm-3479.jpg

http://www.vlmspec.com/assets/images/s4/single/sm-3517.jpg

and 1 of the above referenced runs, 11.7 @ 127, i was still figuring the me7.1 stuff out, no excuses as i was happy for first time shake down passes but the tune was garbage, no lift shifting had me in limp mode most the time and i didnt even know why at the time:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8iP6z7kEgA&hd=1

now back to Tony’s car, sick stuff and thanks for the details thus far. i have e-known him for a while and he has always been one of the do more talk less types and actualy runs the car hard. love it.

#109

thanks for the writeup, can’t wait to see more from your car.

#110

I agree its good to see a Tial car do well. I still do agree this isn’t exactly “well” From my automotive background your using Alcohol (E85) when you take into consideration that E85 requires 40% more fuel. This will allow the turbos to spool much faster then would be shown on normal fuel.

While the results are the results and I don’t think we should not give notice. I agree the hype isn’t really filled. I realize that there is more in the car and I applaud the owner and the tuner. I do however think that there should be a big side note on the results here. That side note should read ### not typical results as seen with other fuel or tunes ### I say this because I just don’t see some of the other tial cars doing anywhere near this with standard race fuel or pump gas.

I would hate to see the owner of the car and the tuner not get there credit for this. I believe later in the year when we see more tial cars go to the track and there results are not even on the map compared to this, I worry that this and these results will be marred to some extent

As a last honest thought. I still don’t think im impressed my the Tial cars. E85 tall boost and its not fairing any better then a pump gas rs6.

I laughed when I read that. I quickly thought to myself. well there is someone that is jealous of Justin. Or there is someone that hates that some of the moderators on AZ actually do there job when there is trolling.

Lets face it. One of the reasons I never got into the B5 was for the egos of many of the owners. They all feel that what they have to say needs to be heard regardless of the topic, rules or platform.

Might be time to try to class up a little.

#111

I like the responses, I look forward to more seat time and results from this car. As far as E85 goes Saki, In my opinion, it has proven to outperform even leaded race fuels with higher octane ratings. The amazing this about ethanol is how cool it burns, therefore allowing for a much safer aggressive tune. I will be running ethanol this season only, one because of the insane and ever rising prices of VP fuels, and second because of the results ive been seeing first hand. Out of all the VP fuels, the most exciting one is VP import, at well over $20 a gallon it’s insane. I never would pay that, I ran Q16 and was unimpressed. It required a bit more fuel than it’s C counterpart because it’s oxygenated, and it didnt show the results vs. cost that I would like to see. I ordered a 55 drum of E98 the other day, it’s slated to get here on thursday i think. I paid $380 shipped, which is just under $7 a gallon. Keep in mind, i think about $150 of that is the freight, so it really is under $5 a gallon for 100% consistent 98% ethanol. I will be diluting this down to roughly 85-90% ethanol depending on the tune. My tuner prefers not to tune using pump E85 because of the varying consistency. I can always have the option to run pump e85 if I have to, but for the price, I’d rather run a blend I made and know the exact percent of ethanol in. I will try running straight E98 with a little top end lubricant in it as well just to see the difference in tuning capability, fuel consumption, and just because I’ll have a barrel full lol. Ethanol is going to shut VP down if they dont start lowering their prices or making their own ethanol blends.
The single drawback to drag racing with ethanol over 10% in a car that is 9.99 or faster, is that now you have to have a SFI 3.2A/15 fire suit, and 3.3/5 boots and gloves. That is at least $1500 in safety equipment right there. I think it’s crazy, the standard 3.3/5A suit and 3.3/3 gloves are more than suitable just like in a gasoline car of the same ET’s. It’s practically a funny car suit. I’m not happy about this, and I’m not replacing my $700 stroud 3.2A/5 suit unless they really bust balls about this. Here is info on it if anyone is interested: http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=3015963

Back on track… Id love to see backpressure sensors on one of these tial cars… I’m keeping an eye on this car, hopefully the intercoolers help out. Either way, nice job going out there and ET’ing with a tial car finally!

#112

@ snowtrooper
you have one of the most well thought out single turbo builds i have seen yet. Looks great!
I’m looking forward to seeing it very dialed in and hauling ass.

What fuels do you run with it?

@nycvr6
My buddy has another built tial car that should be hitting the track this year as well. Just gotta work out the rest of this fueling and get it going. e85, so we will see about getting some more data from these things.
I’ll try to keep them out of the 9’s so they don’t have to buy fire suites lol.
I’ll ask and see if anyone is interested in installing some back pressure sensors. Where does one acquire such sensors and how much do they cost? I can imagine they would be quite expensive.

#113

I see there’s very little confidence in Tial cars and I can understand why. It looks to me as if my Tial 770Rs aren’t going to do any more for me in quarter mile races than K04s. The only advantage appears to be from triple digit speeds and higher. If that’s the case, I’m perfectly fine with that. I’m also feeling K04s will have a very short advantage in lower RPMs. That’s fine if I’m more powerful once I reach high RPMs.

I found these two videos comparing Tial 605s and Tial 770Rs. The silver car is the 770Rs. The first is with the 770R as the camera car and the second is with the 605 as the camera car:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X724WR0Hb24
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_oEfMVcQ2o

It looks like there’s definitely a good bit more power in the 770Rs higher in the RPM range. I’m guessing we’d see very similar results when racing K04s. The K04 car would probably take off quicker than the Tial car but the Tial would reel him in shortly thereafter.

That’s what I’m thinking. In quarter mile races, there’s obviously not a whole lot of advantage for Tial cars. On the highway is where you’ll have most of your fun…

#114

neat

on the highwayrace what speed do you usually get to in a pull?

top of 4th is the norm I’d guess…a.k.a end of the quarter mile…a.k.a where those pulls ended

p.s. I had a funny quote in the first video

#115

It’s been a long time since I’ve had a highway race. I don’t remember. Too fast for the street. :stuck_out_tongue: I’m not following the point you’re trying to make. So please elaborate. I think Tial cars are good for low 11s across the board if they’ve got all the supporting stage 3 mods - I just think they don’t have the right drivers. That’s the only explanation that makes sense to me. Who wants a Tial 770R S4? Guys like me who will pay the price for parts and installation but aren’t necessarily experienced race car drivers. If the dyno is saying these cars have lots of power than they probably do have lots of power. They’re just not owned/driven by the best drivers in most cases. Since there are so few Tial S4s out there, they’re isn’t enough opportunity to prove them.

#116

Back pressure sensors can go from as simple as a 1/8" npt fitting in each manifold in a good spot like the collector area. Then with a flare fitting you can run stainless brake line from both fittings on either side up to by the battery, you can “T” them together there with a flare union and have a mechanical gauge just sitting by the windshield so you can see it. It’s best to after the T, run a damper canister and an electronic pressure sensor, but like I said, you can get a decent idea of whats going on without the canister and an electronic sensor. Instead of a damper canister, I would just take the single line between the “T” and the gauge and roll it around a beer bottle or something 5-6 times to make a coil. It will work similarly and cheaper.

#117

my point is that you said they’re not ideal in the quarter mile but better suited for highway races

well almost every highway pull ends at 120 or 130 mph…just as they did in your videos…which, for a fast car is the end of the quarter mile run too…thus the same.

so the ‘sweetspot’ for the 770s being in highway races and not the quarter mile doesnt make sense unless your hwy races start at 100 and go to 200mph or something… (Or unless the 770 is Accord slow from 0-50 or 0- 60, the part of the quarter mile that you omit on the highway.)

#118

The only reason I’m believing the Tials are best for higher speed racing is because of the higher RPMs it takes to get into peak power and from videos I watch. I’m thinking a Tial 770R car will have a similar run to the way a V10 M5 does. When I used to race those cars in my modified 335i, I’d beat them until 120mph or so - then they’d walk me. I’m thinking this is how a K04 vs Tial 770R race might go.

The way I’m looking at it is I can be a crappy driver with a 500hp S4 or a 700hp S4. I’d rather have more power whether it helps me now or later when I become better at driving it.

#119

guess so.

I’d rather have something that doesnt take so much consternation to justify!

the tials seem to be always needing some big long explanation for what they do. I see this from no other working turbo (rs6, k04 etc)…those just run and its what we expect it to do and it matches the map and the dyno and everyone is happy. The tials need to bring in lawyers and physicists to convince everyone they’re working.

#120

If you have a better suggestion for me than Tial 770R’s - give me a link to the definitive better product. I’m here to learn.