I have a great idea, instead of spending thousands upon thousands on exotic parts, custom cams and intake manifolds to possible only make marginal gains why not just address the real problem. The problem is the exhaust side, the smaller turbine side and stock mani is why that setup stops making big power gains past 7300rpms. Run better manifolds with better turbine side and save thousands on all that other shit while making large gains with less boost til 8300+rpm.
My car is being a test mule for a bit. I am actually curious myself.
However I do agree with your line of thought, it’s been discussed to length, AMD has cars with full mani, etc, we know the gains. All I need is RS4 uppers and I can have 2k more RPM to make power…
My silver car (3.0L 605s) is a test mule for Cnc ported 2.7L heads. My yellow car will have ported 2.8L heads and I will supply flow bench data on both when we get results.
The B5 S4 world used it as a measure of how fast you were accelerating from 4200 to 6500 rpm in 3rd gear via your ECUx or vagcom logs. A good concept, but a bit flawed to use to compare all kinds of people’s cars because joe blow wants to look like a stud? Great…he just runs his car downhill. It was created for a very specific reason - to compare cars, but it was to be done on the same stretch of road by the same guy every time (not to be a nationwide ‘let’s compare’ test. It then got adopted (or kidnapped) by the log happy people in B5 world…and by some of the unscrupulous tuners/parts sellers. It is just about the least reliable test you can use to compare your car to other cars since there are absolutely ZERO checks and balances on the method. It’s only useful for you to compare your car to your car on the same exact stretch of road. Or compare your car to other cars on the exact same stretch of road.
Why 4200-6500? Why not 2000-6500 for a full in gear pull and a good range of data? Why not at least 3000-6500? Why 4200-6500? Well I don’t think the modern era B5 guys know. I’ve asked tons of them on forums. None of them ever knew.
Hint #2 the answer is alluded to in JHM’s 11.1 @ 130 K04 quarter mile video.
Is it because our 3rd gear rapes the B6 S4? I’m not playing this game because you turn people’s words against them like a lawyer does.
Lol its a simple bit of b5 s4 historical trivia
Thought you were ‘much more informed on matters such as these’
Interesting reference to a lawyer though.
It’s easy to tell if your going downhill on a FATS log BTW. Fats was used to guage the difference in tunes between tuners and your own progress on making your own car faster, 60-90MPH in general isnt to bad when your doing it a lot.
But the reason I use 60-130 vbox is, you can’t cheat it, that’s the whole design. And you can compare your car to anyone elses in the world easily. It’s a universally recognized medium.
I love being accused of downhill FATS, because I do it on a road that is less then 1% grade, and it makes me laugh…
FATS so good, it has to be downhill … HAHA
He’s gonna tell you your wrong now… Just waiting for his response…
yeah, FATS is tough…because it’s easy to cheat, it’s easy to be accused of cheating. Not a good solution. Great way to test your own car though…just not a very good dick measuring tool to share with people online (and even less appropriate to use to sell parts)
I like the 60-130 list on 6speed because they try to weed out cheaters, but to be honest, it doesn’t really excite me like the quarter mile does. It’s the quarter mile minus the fun part…minus 0-60, which is ‘the other’ benchmark acceleration test used in the automotive world (1/4 mile being the other).
As for FATS, it wasn’t 60-90 that was the determinant of why that particular rev range was used.
Hint #3 - if the B7 Rs4 world did ‘FATS’ equivalent times to compare various tune a vs. tune b cars vs stock tune cars, we should probably do 5500-7500 RPM (in fact we don’t…we use 3000-8000 rpm, which shows the RS4 owners aren’t very sharp!)
The stock manifolds are not as bad as many people claim to be. Got to remember, our motors are only 2.7t motors, not much displacement going on in the combustion chambers. If you look at a stock 2.7t exhaust manifold yes they are small and the ports are nothing to be thrilled but look at whats been proven.
You say they you cant push more then 1 bar through them before becoming useless? Nope, stage 3 cars do 21 psi all day. Jays’s b5 pushed 30 on his. PSI does not matter, its about how much cfm . Jays B5 still has the stock manifolds and has yet to max those out.
At the end of the manifolds you notice they taper down. Most think this is restrictive but actually helps create velocity and momentum in the exhaust to further help spool the turbos. Thats how we make good torque with our motors and k04s are such a great street set-up
IMO with the tials, this is what I think the issue may be. The hotside looks like a k04, stock k04s on a stage 3 setup car runs out of steam around 5500rpms. the compressor side looks a little bigger but didnt take attention to the internals.
So my theory is they are over spinning a turbo that is flowing a little more cfm but is choking because of the hotside. the comp wheels is tool small design but compressor housing has the room for more. So they are spinning this little k04 pretty much with a over size housing and thats why they have to push 30-40 psi to make there “power”
Makes me want one just typing about it lol
^^^makes you want what?
the Tials, but im being sarcastic.
So if not 605’s for utilizing the stock block, what then? Def. not k04’s.
That’s the issue - their aren’t too many options.
K04’s, ft’s, 605’s, 770’s, or gt setups.
People want more than k04’s so they go 605’s. It’s that simple.
Now for us who don’t prefer 605’s, what do we do?
K04s are awesome
FTs are VAST so that’s pretty much a non-starter right there
605s - still to be proven. One 11 second pass (11.9 @ 116) so not much awesomeness yet. Hopefully more with time.
770s - appear to love to live at high speeds/high rpms, but on a car don’t appear to be too awesome for a DD (people who use 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear a lot lol)
Don’t forget the BW RS6 turbos. Last time I checked, only one B5 S4 has ever run 10s or better full weight, and it had RS6 turbos (or some derivation thereof) on it. JHM’s 10.8 from a month or two ago.
10 second RS4s
marc = 900 lbs stripped out
oz = same thing…dedicated race car and monster nitrous shot
guru = stripped interior, no bumpers, not sure about catback being off or not
eurocode = stripped interior, not sure much else
That leaves jaybquick. 10.8 @ 131, full interior, full exhaust. Only one in the world. Of course you will need a built block for that type of setup.
Hard to say really. If you’re staying twin turbo, and going built, RS6-R (whatever that means) looks interesting but we know fuck all about them other than they work at Sac. If you’re staying twin turbo and just going stage 3 the K04 setups with a full list of supporting mods and (super important) a great tune is a hard car to fuck with. Trap well into the 120s on race gas. Trap high teens to around 120 on pump. Run well into the 11s on race and mid-high 11s on pump. That’s a frigging awesome setup. People seem to have lost sight of that. Instead they want a Tial build that runs … slower? But has an awesome dyno sheet.
What trim exactly was Dom’s car in when he ran the numbers? I was under the assumption that he had a full interior and pretty much full weight a4 with a s4 swap… I figured around 3400lbs…
605s pail in compairason to the Bw rs6 turbos. the rs6 turbos hit harder faster and run stong. money wise the rs6 turbos were less money so that put them even furhter on top. Now with the rs6r turbos. I Think the 605 turbos just went out to pasture.
i thought he mentioned in one of the good argument threads on AZ a couple of months ago that he had no bumpers no catback no interior?
can always ask him again. I seriously doubt it was full body/catback/interior though for whatever reason. The A4 factor as well kind of makes his times border on irrelevant in S4 circles I say. i.e. if I take a V10 from an M5 and put it in an E30 3 series does it become an M5? I know his A4 is a B5 but to me it seems weird. I wouldn’t put him on any actual lists. I’d just say it’s an interesting car. Just as I wouldn’t put an A6 2.7T on the B5 S4 official list.
If when you say run strong you mean RS6s pull better up top than 605s you are mistaken. I can show you logs from my own cars that will show you a RS6 hybrid with a 59mm billet wheel didn’t keep up with the 605 uptop…
I also thought I remember him saying something about back seats, but maybe that was for this season. I see your points about it being an a4, I’m not sure I fully agree. I don’t know the actuall difference in weight when they have the same motor, I would guess 400-500 lbs lighter at most. I wouldn’t take it away from him, I think he can be looked at on the same level of judgement as the s4’s, but I could be wrong. I put more emphasis on people actually being hands on with their car, I just never liked the thought of people just shelling out the cash for a build, then bragging. I know people don’t always have the free time, but it’s just soooo much more gratifying to know I assembled my motor, gear box, and did a good 75% of the fabrication on my car. It would be more if I could tig aluminum lol, but I suck at it.
^^^you should hire 91GL. He’s getting pretty handy with the welder…
http://i793.photobucket.com/albums/yy211/crazyfasts4/0120121441a.jpg