2873’s are monsters for sure, those should get into 800whp range; I am still in love with the spool on the 2868’s. Car should be on the dyno at the end of next week.
No matter what turbos or what shop built your car its still your car and your direction. With that said we are all cheering for the community.
It might be shop X or Shop Y that installed a part. Its your research and time that makes the car shine. Im sure with what you guys are doing the cars will run well. If they don’t kill it in the 1/4 mile I doubt your going to put a bullet in the car and push it off a cliff.
Lets face it the more power your looking to make on the 2.7T with a big turbo the more RPM you need to push to get the turbo to move. Some turbos are better suited for a lower RPM power curve some are not. Your always going to have to give somewhere to get larger gains else where.
tweetss4estate
Toss your V8 story (air box) in the S4 B6 section. I think others would like to hear about this as this was just an issue with a few members not too long ago.
yeah, lol yet another bad airbox on a 4.2 story.
it will be interesting to see if jaybquick dynos his RS6-R setup. I bet a Coke it makes 50-100 whp/wtq less than burning shot and d coals, and would beat them both in pulls/quartermile, unless they insisted on a pull from 100mph to 200mph or something.
On that note, northern california is only 800 miles away. One of you guys make a vacation out of it and race jaybquick
I think he actually had a piston meltdown.
I don’t doubt the dyno numbers really. Well that’s a lie, I do, but only to a certain extent. i.e. I still imagine these 600 whp cars will dyno something fantastic. As mentioned a few times, but nobody seems to want to explore this, tunes written on the dyno will do well on the dyno…but won’t necessarily do well on the street. EPL is one of those dyno tuners. They have had a history of their cars not lighting the world on fire (on the street/strip) as a result of this dyno focused mentality. Let’s not forget that EPL is the tuner here. It may very well be that AMD does a decent job fabbing up/building what the clients want…and again, the real problems in these TIALS builds is the tune.
One of the funny things about the good old days at VAST was that they didn’t have a dyno…so they didn’t live/die by dyno numbers. Instead, they tuned to make their cars faster on the street. They would do RPM/second tests and quarter mile tests to see if the changes they were making were succesful or not. Aside from the gimmick cars (10secondS4 with his 900 lbs of weight reduction, and OZZ with whatever he had done) the fastest B5 S4s for a while were all tuned by the influential tuner who helped VAST get going. Since he stepped away, VAST has gone to fucking shit as we all have noticed.
That tuner now tunes for JHM (and others), and those cars are all the fastest. JHM has no dyno either, funny enough. They also just about flat out refuse to dyno their cars (correction…they dyno them once in a while…but they don’t sell with the dyno for the most part). They managed to run 10.8 seconds a couple of weeks ago with full interior, full exhaust, no gimmicks on that tuner’s latest B5 tuning project. There is not a big co-incidence here…this guy just flat knows how to tune.
So I predict that on an independant dynothe AMD/EPL/Tial cars will still look good…but they will still struggle to accelerate through all of the gears we all use in normal life (1-2-3 since you’re rarely WOT in 4th near redline…that’s double the speed limit in any state)
Will do, I will have to go back to the old setup take some readings, video 0-60, and do it all over again with the stocker. Might be something I do tomorrow with free time.
I think the devil is in the details. JHM car is definately making close to 550-600WHP with C16 and raped RS6 brids. Not sure how long that setup would last, but it would provide quick spool characteristics.
VAST never accomplished anything so not really going to go there, they never had fast cars, except the legendary 1/4 run that blew the engine.
Street logging can only get you so far.
Anyone who knows how to study the dyno’s can see the area under the curve, which should correlate to real world results.
Gearhead dynoed his car at EPL and made over 600, then went to a dyno day with a bunch of VAST folks, etc, and made 40WHP more, unfortunately I have not seen one example of an EPL car making less power on another Dyno, its been the opposite so far.
All this discussion boils down to, sure the cars from AMD/EPL have the fastest FATS times, 60-130 times, and much more power and area under the curve, but why the heck do they not do well in the 1/4. Reality is your chasing ghosts, people that know how to drive the 1/4 can take stock EVO/STi into the 12’s no problem with 1:10th the power of these cars.
Like I said, the game is not over, and this year I think you will see some shocking results from Gearhead, possibly me, and some other TiAL cars, more then likely this summer is the timeframe.
I am hoping to get to the track next month first time it opens.
A few things. The RS6-r turbos I agree with. If they are like RS6 turbos they are going to have a very quick spool and this will be much better for 1/4 mile. I also don’t think you can have high PSI RS6 turbos last long
Vast accoplished a lot. They just seemed to not have any real in house cars. While vast seems to have gone down hill I believe they really did make a impact. Seems when prince left so did a good part of there sucuess.
Also there 1/4 mile legend car never blew the motor. From what I remember the tuner who tuned the car and owned the car gave that car to vast as he was one of the guys who started vast. from there I think the motor got put into a different car.
Street logging is just like dyno tuning. They both have there limit.
I know the dyno I ran one for 10 years. Dyno tuning is helpful. I wouldn’t say it actually results in great real world results. Its a great way to do something. At this point its a little bit of a fail because the guys that tune these cars by now should know what there doing enough to not need a dyno. STill I know the B5s can come with such a large range of parts so maybe a dyno is still needed.
as far as fats times. I believe your really killing the debate here for EPL/AMD. while they might have the fastest “FATS” times non of those fast cars has done anything but be fast in a graph or a log. PLEASE Don’t take what Im saying to bash. Im not if you really look at it the “FATS” times seem to only be fast on a graph Vs a actual straight line test. IE 1/4 mile.
lets look at the bottom line. Seems some of these cars appear fast in every catigory other then the one that you can’t mess with or you can’t edit. IE 1/4 mile. There is always a list of excuses on why they don’t do well and there is just as long of a list of people saying there going to change that. Well NON of that has happened where anyone can see a real result.
And the lack of actual impressive results at the 1/4 mile isn’t my fault or your fault. Its just not there. Im not going to say its never going to happen IM just saying now… it hasn’t and the actual lack of performance from these high hp fast “FATS” times seems to be proving the high hp and “FATS” times to be somewhat usless or fauls
well said.
I think in the end. There are a hand full of guys who feel confident that the tial turbos are going to do well. Have they done well. LETS BE HONEST. NO… they have shown well in certian tests but it hasn’t related to actual results when you test them on the STREET or the 1/4 mile.
FACT OF THE MATTER IS. Right now all the tests havent been backed up… Will it happen. Maybe. has it happened. NO
All me to the list. I fully agree. Tons of hype no real results. They have been tested in evey fashion but they one that can’t be rigged. Im not syaing that the other tests have been rigged Im just saying.
What is there several pages of arguments. Cause at this point they havent produced where it counts. seriously where is the beef. Its not in the 1/4 mile.
If you don’t think burningcoals is a liar then why are we discounting his 60-130 time? Go to 6speed and look at all of the cars he beat in one gear. How is that not “street performance”? I know of drag strips that have equiptment that they admit “it isn’t 100% accurate” or radar guns that haven’t been calculated for a while etc. I think it is absurd to completely discount 60-130 times.
so…sitting in 4th gear at 4000 rpm (or whatever it is) and winding it out until redline at 130 mph is what you call ‘street’ driving?
What fucking street do you drive on lol?
Personally, my ignorant street driving involves stuff like this:
- launching the car at a light and ripping away in 1st gear through 2nd and 3rd to burn my buddy
- rolling onto an onramp in 2nd at 3000-4000 and whomping through 2nd and 3rd, and maybe a bit of 4th
- turning a corner in first or second and then whomping it through 1-2-3rd gear
- cruising at 45 mph, then downshifting to 2nd gear and ripping through to 2nd to 3rd to get past someone or just to have fun
- racing a buddy in mexico from say 10 mph in 1st, or 40ish in 2nd or 3rd up to whatever speed makes us feel like we should stop.
So the 60-130 is an interesting test of the power the car is making, but as burningcoals said, if he can’t shift gears without losing revs and dropping to 1000 rpm (yes, he said that) what the fuck is the point of the build? Are you going to always find guys to race where they let you get into boost in a single gear, and then run from there to the top of that gear (but no faster)? You have to understand what I’m talking about (or you’re just not trying).
p.s. I don’t think burningcoals is a liar. I think he’s pretty funny and I enjoy reading his posts on audizine. I just think that the guys at EPL and AMD know that these cars don’t accelerate very well down low, and they know that they don’t do well tuning wise getting in and out of gears, so they are doing their best to make guys like YOU and burningcoals rebel against the quarter mile, as it will highlight their weaknesses.
The supra world is a good proxy for this. The big hp guys over there just stopped driving their cars. They used to own the dragstrip. They used to put down sick times and were really terrifying cars.
Now, they do big builds, big build threads on forums, a little 60-130 stuff, but mostly they sit around and dyno the cars and argue about the dyno results. They measure bumps in 200 whp. ‘800 whp car’ or 1000 whp car or 1200 whp car. It’s pretty absurd…but they have all turned into engineers…more interested in the builds than actually driving the cars.
The old school B5 used to test the car against the 1/4 mile all the time. Why?
- AWD
- 4.11 gears
- killer power
- a nice tight little car that launched well and moved the fuck out
For some reason, the Tial/EPL/AMD guys are trying to convince everyone in B5 land that those 4 attributes are no longer applicable, and that they should abandon the 1/4 mile (even though the 600 and 700 whp vettes and GTRs and Porsches and AMG and MOPAR guys still go and tear it up)
The Tial/EPL/AMD crew are very similar to the current supra guys. They don’t race. They don’t go to the strip. They don’t run the cars in 1st gear. They don’t do anything below 50 mph. They love dyno sheets. They love FATS graphs and logs.
It’s a shame…because the B5 is BUILT for the dragstrip. It’s a fucking assassin out there.
I was saying that we cannot throw out his results. With that said, it is clear, if you accept that he didn’t fudge his data, that the car is doing well on the street. That’s all I was saying.
The B5 was not built for the drag strip, come on man. It has never 1/4 mile’d like fox body mustangs or camaro’s. All of those take less money and power to go fast in the 1/4. I think the 1/4 mile gives wonderful insight into how fast a car is. With that said, I don’t think it should be our only measurement. Point and case behind everything I’ve been trying to say.
We own Audis. Who cares about the Mustangs from 25 years ago. We own Audis. In our world, the B5 is a perfectly designed quarter mile car. Stop pretending it’s not. It was, up until Tial cars started to run shit times.
Getting lots of measurements is great, I’m all for it. I just think the de-facto standard straight line performance test is the quarter mile. The only people who don’t think so are people who build or bought cars that don’t do well at the quarter mile.
The Bugatti Veyron kills it
The Koeniggseggissggeeggg kills it
The 458 kills it
The Reventon and Murci kills it
The 911 turbo kills it
The GTR kills it
None of these, the fastest production cars in the world, do poorly at the dragstrip compared to their power levels. None of the best big power cars on earth have apologists who say ‘the car isn’t built for the dragstrip’ or ‘gearing isn’t optimal’ or any excuses. They all perform.
The guys who say the 1/4 mile is not a good proxy for acceleration or who search frantically for an alternative are guys who are unable to achieve good results at, as I said, the de-facto standard measurement of acceleration testing.
The second most popular standard is the 0-60mph (or 0-100kmh) time. The same guys who avoid the dragstrip and advocate the 60-130 are avoiding the #1 and #2 standard acceleration tests in order to compensate.
Being made for the 1/4 and being one of the better Audis of the 21st century are two different titles. Those other cars were designed to launch with no issues, these weren’t. Which is why USP had to re-do and un-audi most of the drivetrain. I never said it wasn’t good, or that I won’t do it. All I said is I don’t think it should be the only measurement.
FYI - My 1 shift 3rd - 4th was 5.9 60-130, matching a race gas 2.7T time.
I don’t lose on the street. Or I have not lost yet.
Most my street races are from 2nd - 3rd, 4th is usually to fast and my gears go by to quick.
I think all this talk and speculation is pointless at this point. Everyone is chasing Guruman still, and he proved GT’s can do 10’s all day long.
Most people are running race gas down the track, which really helps spool, etc. So some dude running 92oct did 128 traps, who else is doing that? Show me any B5 doing 128 traps on pump gas… I would rather run straight race by a long shot then pump and meth.
Let’s say this; I have no where near pulled out all the tricks and stops to run an amazing 1/4.
Anyway, so cool, keep thinking that we won’t progress and do better, but I wouldn’t bet on it.
It’s funny, because people are comparing dudes who have 100 + runs down the strip to people who have like 1-2 runs down the strip, then they are drawing conclusions.
My 60-130 time is up there with some of the fastest cars ever;
Can you guess which car I am? This is copied from 6speedonline.com
[i]
*3.40 - Bob Helms, 1180 rwhp TT Viper, Auto, slicks
*3.53 - Underground Racing TT Gallardo, 1,500+whp, 2-shifts
*3.93 - 931 rwhp Supra, 88mm turbo, TH400 Auto, ET Drags
4.8 - 900 rwhp Supra (88GT47, TH400, no NOS, drag radials)
*4.81 E30 325i, turbocharged, E85, Drag Radials
*4.88 - 1,080 rwhp C6 Z06
4.9 - 940 rwhp Supra (35 psi)
*5.1 - 780rwhp 240SX with Supra motor, 3-shifts (trapped 152 on this run)
5.1 - 840 rwhp Supra (30 psi)
*5.26 - 997 GT3 RS TURBO / 1-shift
5.4 - 1,000 rwhp TT Viper
5.6 - Bugatti Veyron
*5.71 - 2000 Audi S4, built 3.0L, Tial Alpha 28’s, fuel system, exhaust, pump and meth at 2.0 BAR
*5.72 - Subaru Impreza GC8, built motor, big turbo and 100 shot of nitrous
*5.8 - Ford GT, Whipple S/C, 780 rwhp, 1-shift
5.9 - GSXR 1000 with bolt-ons
6.1 - Saleen S7 Twin Turbo
6.6 - Ford Cobra, Whipple S/C at 22 psi
6.9 - Mosler MT900S
7.0 - Ferrari Enzo
*7.06 - C6 Z06; intake, tune, headers, cam, no cats, 560 rwhp, 2-shifts
*7.24 - Mercedes SLR McLaren
*7.25 - Stock 997 GT2 / 1-shift
7.3 - Porsche Carrera GT
7.3 - Ferrari Enzo
*7.66 - 996 TT ‘S’ with K16/24 Hybrids, 4th gear pull only
*7.75 - Shelby GT500, Kenne Bell, 700+ rwhp, 1-shift
*7.8 - Lamborghini LP640, stock, 2-shifts
*7.8 - Chevrolet Corvette C6 Z06, stock, 2-shifts
7.8 - Chevrolet Corvette ZR1
7.9 - RX7, turbocharged (GT35), 360+ rwhp -
*8.51 C63 with Gintani headers and full exhaust
9.1 - Porsche 993 RUF Turbo R (100 octane)
9.4 - Lamborghini Diablo VT 6.0
9.5 - Porsche 997TT
9.6 - Ferrari F50
*9.9 - Lamborghini Gallardo, stock, 2006, 6-MT, 2-shifts
*10.1 - Ferrari F430
10.3 - BMW M6, stock, 2-shifts
*10.4- E60 M5, stock, 2-shifts
*10.48 - C63 AMG with headers and flash
*10.93 - E63 AMG
10.9 - Nissan GT-R
11.0 - Shelby GT500, stock, 2-shifts
11.7 - Ferrari Challenge Stradale
60-130 is its own medium, sport or w/e you wan’t to call it. It is NOT people who AVOID the drag strip lol!
Drawing that conclusion is only to put yourself on a pedestal and tell yourself your doing something cooler then someone else.
It’s like saying football is harder then esports, yet both would get their ass kicked if they tried to do the other.
are you going to remove your interior, your downpipes, your catback and your bumpers?
Because if you’re not, you’re not chasing guruman. You’re chasing jaybquick from JHM and his 10.8.
guru and marc’s times were pretty hard to compare to if you ask me…they’re just so stripped it’s not really fun to compare anymore. Go full interior as you would taking your girlfriend out on a date.
as for pump gas, your trap speed is looking better if it’s on pump. Still off a bit, but good for you. That’s the pump gas record trap speed (although nobody really goes on pump gas for whatever reason).
jaybquick’s B5 S4 ran 11.5 @ 126 on california 91 octane gas in the summer. That was during the development stage for this new car. Dan from JHM took it to a fun dragstrip event run by his school, and after his first pass…the 11.5 @ 126…nobody would race him lol.
Not focusing on trap speed, but ET, on s4biturbo the best pump gas times (before that run by dan@jhm) were:
11.645 @ 119.06 - Tommy Gun K04, piggies, straight pipe catback, FMIC, stage 3 clutch, SSP tune
(The next fastest time I found that ‘qualified’ was 11.934@117.91 so as we thought, there aren’t a ton of guys deep into the 11s in street trim.)