V8 4.0tt Swap

B8 S4
#1

Has there been any talk about this in this forum? I’ve searched here and on the Zine, and googled as well to see if any discussions are floating around. Either I suck at searching, or there just really hasn’t been any solid content to go off of.

I’d like to get an idea if this is even an possibility for this platform, or a hopeless dream. What would be the main challenges in making something like this happen? I’m mechanically inclined, and have pulled motors, and have experience with all internal upgrades on a VQ motor. Luckily, this would be more focused on a swap and not cracking the block open. However, aside from hardware challenges, and I’m sure the endless amount of wiring harnesses, and then the drivetrain, I assume software would be an issue too. I wonder if it would be utilizing an ecu from that platform, (S6, RS6, or the like) or if we could run the current ECU? So many questions. Then the challenge of getting the right tune for any upgrades…ie, APR.

Ideally, I’d love to swap in the 4.0tt and run the RS6 turbos with the software upgrade from APR. Then again, not limited to that particular motor, I’d even be happy with the one from the RS4.

Let’s open this for discussion, I’m really curious and you guys are probably the best to go to with something like this to get some educated responses.

#2

I know that MRC in the UK are working on 4.0T swap for B8 platform, but IIRC they are far from done.

And there’s another project in Russia where someone is trying to put 4.0T and gearbox with all ECUs and wiring harnesses from RS7 into a B8 car, but they didn’t get anywhere so far.

I don’t think there was a single successful 4.0T swap project so far

#3

what’s the point?

anyone doing this swap is wasting their time money and sanity. Or they’re doing it for someone, and taking people’s money and wasting those people’s time, money and sanity for their own profit.

a 4.0T is a V8 and is a cool engine but

  1. it’s massive compared to the 3.0T. The length alone will make this retarded and will result in removing the firewall or some other sketchy detail that will make you scratch your head

  2. the 3.0T is delivering incredible performance as it is…we’re seeing guys running in the low low 11s @ 120+ on race fuel, and mid-high 11s @ 116-117 or so on pump. A 4.0T will certainly be faster, but not enough to get you excited

  3. the money, time and effort required will make you say 'why didn’t I just buy a 4 year old S6 and tune it?

All in all it’s one of those silly projects that isn’t worth it, thus won’t get bought, and thus won’t get done.

Someone will say ‘don’t be a hater’ or something retarded. That’s fine. You put up the $25,000 for the S4, the $15,000 for a crate 4.0T (on sale) and the $10,000 in work/fabrication and ruining of your 3.0T to end up with a 4.0T 2011 S4 that cost $50,000…the same price as a good used 2014 S6.

Here’s one…low miles and has warranty and audicare.

Can’t even tell it apart from a B8 S4 anyway lol

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/vehicledetails.xhtml?zip=14201&dealerName=Continental%2BAudi&dealerId=557922&startYear=2014&location=Buffalo%2BNY-14201&maxPrice=50000&firstRecord=0&endYear=2017&searchRadius=0&referrer=%2Fcar-dealers%2FBuffalo%2BNY-14201%2F557922%2FContinental%2BAudi%3FendYear%3D2017%26firstRecord%3D0%26maxPrice%3D50000%26searchRadius%3D0%26startYear%3D2014%26zip%3D14201&listingId=443107716&Log=0

http://images.autotrader.com/scaler/544/408/hn/cb0205fed7eb4f6a8ba3939a130d8e32.jpg

#4

Saki is right. In the long run it is better to just go buy the better car with Audis and IMO most European cars. The American car guys can get away with motor swaps so much easier and cheap that it is much more feasible.

#5

The MRC swap was into the b8.5 RS4 so the engine weight is only 16lbs more or so and the 4.0T is “only” 65lbs more then the 3.0t. The MRC swapped car is done and running it was in Performance Audi. Since the Chassis fits V8s and straight 4s you should have to be cutting anything. They used the Trans and ECU from the 4.0T car but as we know the DSG is roughly the same. That said I do agree with what was said just buy a good used S6 unless you want/need a project car and hate excess cash.

To give and idea the weight gain on the engine is 65lb over the 3.0t but the platform weight loss is roughly 300kg or 661lbs.

#6

and the loss of 6 inches of total length and an inch or so of width (which might be a positive or a negative, who knows)

#7

Just start with a used S6 and upgrade the hell out of it. Not a very good road course car but you can teach it some tricks before the tires and brakes overheat.

A better project would be a 2.5TFSI swap with 2WD.

#8

yea who knows; but it “can” be done, but the more apt question is should you, and at this point I say NO

#9

I’d like to see the 4.0TT swapped into an older 4.2 R8. Swapping into the S4 doesnt make any sense

#10

if the 4.0TT rev’ed to 8400rpm I would agree. I think it would remove some of the R8’s Character. Even though the horsepower injection would be very nice

#11

Driving an R8 isn’t about the max hp. If you want hp, they make a V10 R8 for that.

Also when they did put a twin turbo engine in the R8 chassis it overheated and melted to the ground on the nurburgring

#12

Would you say driving an R8 is more about max hp than driving an S4??? Anyone who ever tunes/mods their car is looking for MORE of something. Being able to swap the 4.0TT into an older R8 can be had for well under 100k with it being much faster on just a tune than a new V10 plus which will cost twice as much…as long as it doesnt melt to ground :stuck_out_tongue: I forgot about that… there has to be a way to improve cooling.

#13

I’m saying the R8 leaves you feeling satisfied. These other cars you reference leave you feeling that the car could use more. The R8 doesn’t have a lot of that.

What’s the beit of a Jerry rigged swapped 4.0t vs a 5.2 dsg? Saving 50 grand? Yeah that’s what matters to R8 owners.

Also, you won’t build a twin turbo R8 for under 100 grand, never mind ‘well under’ 100. You high? You moved to Colorado?

Finally, if someone does that they will almost immediately sell the car and move on to something else as it will feel empty.

People who do these gigantic swaps aren’t doing it because they want more power. They just want something else.

#14

After a quick check on Ebay Motors, the cheapest R8 listed is $66K and most early 2008/2009s are around $70K. I just don’t see someone getting a running non-salvage R8, swapping in a 4.0TT, and actually getting the thing to run right for less than $100K.

Then I am splitting hairs a bit but a S6/7 420 horsepower version 4.0TT would not be good enough for a swap like this in my opinion. So that would mean it would take a RS7/S8/S8+ 560-605 horsepower version 4.0TT to be worth doing the swap. Those engines are going to cost a bunch of money because there are not going to be very many wrecked donor cars right now. In the future there will be but nothing like the availability of the smaller less expensive cars.

Next we get to how are they going to solve the transmission issue? I doubt that the 4.0TT will bolt right up to the R8 transmission. Even if it did then the R8 transmission was never intended to handle a bunch of torque. I would have to assume that the person doing the swap would use a manual transmission R8 because a R-tronic would just further complicate things. Plus the R-tronic/E-gear single clutch transmissions were always kind of weak. Even still though that is a big stress on the clutch, synchronizers, and transmission internals going from a max 317 ft-lbs of torque to 516 ft-lbs of torque.

After a quick few minutes of thought it just seems like more and more of a pain in the ass to do a 4.0TT swap into a R8. If someone was going to do it then I would wish them luck but be happy that I didn’t have to deal with it.

#15

exactly jimmy, there’s way more to this than just finding a salvaged S6 4.0 and plopping it in to a 2009 R8 4.2 with 110,000 miles on it.

the transmission discussion is totally different…the manual and R tronic R8 transmissions aren’t really noted for lighting the world on fire

of course you could just get an S-tronic R8 and put it in there and you’d have great performance, but again that’s a marginal gain vs. an S-tronic 5.2…and you’ve now got a massive job making it fit before you get there.

the whole thing is somewhat comical to me. Someone who has the patience, time and resources to buy an R8…and to buy a 4.0T from the S8/RS67 also has the resources to do it right and just buy a newer R8 S-tronic that runs 10s @ 128 mph.

Something nobody is considering is the depreciation. What do you think this R8 project will cost…lets say $120,000. Fine. Try to sell it…and guess what nobody will give you jack shit for it. You’ll be lucky to get $80,000 for it once it’s done. So you’ll pay $40,000 to drive a fast R8 with fuckloads of power. Guess what you can buy a 2 year old one, and drive it for 2 years for half that. And you’ll be listening to a sweet V10 that revs to 8000+ RPM, all while being as calm as a hindu cow because you have a perfect car with a full warranty.

#16

I’m pretty sure i’d be unsatisfied with a NA 4.2 R8’s performance, and unsatisfied with the v10 plus price.

Saki i actually used your numbers…unless you were high at the time??? “$15k for crate 4.0T then $10k to fabricate” = $25 (lets add 10k just in case) so $35k

13 (5 manual) R8s listed right now for under $70k all around 40k miles, which could be negotiated down another 5k : http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-sale/cars+under+70000/Audi/R8/Salt+Lake+City+UT-84121?zip=84121&showcaseOwnerId=45503690&startYear=1981&maxPrice=70000&firstRecord=0&endYear=2017&modelCodeList=R8&searchRadius=0&makeCodeList=AUDI&numRecords=25

So $65k for the R8 and $25-35k for the 4.0TT = $90-100k; that was my crazy estimate.

Theoretically building a R8 that is much faster and fun (torque) than a V10 plus for half the price.

That was the idea, is it truly feasible? Probably not, but i still like it ;D

#17

you weren’t using my numbers, and no I wasn’t high. Never have been.

  1. those numbers were for a B8 S4…R8 is a whole new world of complicated as Jimmy showed. For example the 4.0T in the S6 (the engine whose price I quoted…add another $12,000 for the strong 4.0T) does bolt up to the same DSG that is in the B8 S4. That’s pretty simple. Not the same in the R8 though…you’re talking about 10 year old R8s with 10 year old R8 transmissions, neither of which were all that well received at the time. So not only do they not just mate up nice, they’re sorta shit to start. So add another fortune in tuning/build to get the trans/engine to mate up.

  2. I didn’t think it was realistic to get a decent R8 for less than $80,000.

  3. you said you wouldn’t be satisfied with 5.2 R8 pricing…why? You’re willing to go $100,000+ into a swap that will take 2 years to complete and tune and get right. Factor in your time value of money, depreciation of the car (which will not be road legal in too many states) and the ‘cost’ of owning this unicorn, your main concern with the 5.2, will end up being gigantic

Consider:

build, time, tuning etc. of around $100,000 even if you’re right…that was a 65k R8 you bought. And it’s now a ‘salvage title’ $45,000 R8 if you ever sell it. But you’re in it for $55,000 on top of that. Unless you find some forum sucker to buy it for more. IF you keep it for 2 years after the build is done, your cost is $13,500/year for a car you drove for only 2 of those 4 years. SO $27,500/year.

While you do that, I’ll buy this 2014 R8 5.2 V10 with S-tronic (DSG)
http://www.autotrader.ca/a/Audi/R8/AURORA/Ontario/19_9878812_/?ursrc=pl&urp=1&urm=1&showcpo=ShowCPO

I’ll give him $145,000 CDN which is about $108,000 USD

And I’ll DESTROY your 4.0T manual swap…and you will be begging me for a recording of my car at 8500 RPMs to play on the CD player in your 9 year old muffled sounding turbo 4.0 that revs to 6800.

AFter all of this, my car will depreciate about $20,000 total over the next 2-3 years. So I’ll get back $90,000 pretty easily when I’m ready for something new.

#18

Really? I’ve never been high either…

  1. I was talking going manual transmission, does that matter?

  2. :smiley: they are slowly dropping

  3. I was talking 2017 5.2 V10 plus (610hp) which are much faster than the normal 5.2s (550hp). Those are all around 200k. I dont think i’d ever sell it. I’ll keep it just like my S5 (probably turn it into a track car eventually). If it took 2years + then I’d be out; 6 months would be the longest i could wait.

That is a nice deal for that 2014 yet it will be down about 200hp/400tq :o for around the same price!

So I dont think there will be any destroying on your end :D. Open up the cats and that V8 will produce a nice note.

In the end this project is probably not feasible in 6 months for under $110k (I wonder what JHM thinks?), so a R8 similar to the one you mentioned + the UGR stage 1 kit ($32k) is what looks best to me ;D

#19

its ridiculous how they’re holding value. These were $120,000 in 2008. It’s 2017 tomorrow night. They’re still mostly $80,000. That’s ridiculously good. If you daily drove it and put 120,000 miles on it, it might be down to $60,000 today. That means for $7,000/year you drove an R8. That’s like $590/month. It’s something nobody considers when pricing out a car to buy. They think about cost, and ‘payment’ on the loan etc. as if that’s relevant to total cost lol, but they never factor in depreciation.

I’m pretty sure my cost of ownership (car alone) of my RS4 is in the $400/month range for the 5 years I’ve owned it. AKA honda accord V6 territory or Infiniti G35

Your example of cherry picking the latest, greatest 2017 R8 5.2 Plus is entirely irrelevant. You’re comparing a 9 year old R8 4.2 with a ghetto swap to a brand new supercar. Why not compare it to the price of a Veyron or Chiyron .

The comparison I showed eliminates the swap. Don’t forget you were talking about swapping in the S6 engine, with the smaller turbos and the weaker internals and cooling. You want to make it into a tuned RS7 type level of power? You’re in for another $15,000 or so. So you’re now spending more, waiting 2 years, and for what? so you can ham fist the shifts and lose to a tuned B8 S4 on race gas…not to mention that 5.2 550hp R8 DSG that will stilll leave you at the start line like you forgot to go.

#20

Saki, I have been occasionally looking at nicer cars for my next car and what you are saying about the depreciation is interesting. It seems like the really nice cars lose a bunch of value the first couple years and then pleateu. Hell the RS4 did that too around $40-50. The extreme high end cars like Lamborghinis seem to get whored around with 7-9 owners at a certain point because the owners can buy them, drive them around for a little bit, and then sell them for what they paid for them.

A bit off topic but Car and Driver named the Gen 2 R8/Huracan V10 one of the 10 best engines. It also appears to rev to 8,800 rpms now too.

http://www.caranddriver.com/flipbook/power-play-the-10-greatest-engines-of-the-moment#2