Fyi here is what I asked black Benz (a drag racer) in the six speed online thread that has Jibberjive “all worked up”
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"what do you think about the trap speed (137mph) vs. the power it makes (800 whp, or about 900-1000 crank hp)
Seems a bit disconnected, no? Launch was good…not sure where he lost trap speed.
We’ve seen other B5 S4s on 01E trap around there making 300 whp less power…and we’ve seen B5 S4s on 01Etrap 10 mph more than this making 150-200 whp less power.
Still, 10.9 @ 137 is awesome. Only the second B5 A4 in the 10s i believe."
He’s claiming it did exactly what it did, 794whp and 10.9 sec E/T. And he didn’t say if you’re a ‘good driver’, he said if you’re a ‘better driver, then you’ll get better times,’ which is very likely true (especially considering he went to the track I think two times with that setup; it took guru like 50 passes to drop like a second off of his time).
Jared’s car had a different motor, different turbos, different weight and freaking nitrous (which is a user-configurable power adder). To try to compare dyno numbers from a different car, different weight on a different dyno under different conditions with a different motor, different turbo, and therefore likely altogether different powerband is indeed irrelevant. Essentially the only thing the two cars shared is the gear ratios (read: tranny back).
I’m interjecting because it’s tiresome to see you try to make a mountain out of nothing and constantly try to conjure up an argument even when there is no counter argument.
The people on this site are smart/experienced enough to know that there is no ‘standard dyno’ or ‘standard dyno conditions’, so chassis dyno numbers should be interpreted for what they are, a good tool for measure individual gain on a single dyno but a poor tool to try to compare absolute engine performance across distance/time. There’s simply nothing to call out regarding this car, except for your argument of what you personally believe 1 unit of WHP represents (I’ll give you a hint, there is no scientific unit of wheel horsepower).
How many passes have you made at the track?
How many times have you been to the strip?
How many sites do you administer the quarter mile list on?
I get the distinct impression that you are turning into the greatest American Audi forum hero trying to rescue everyone from evil saki when he is asking a simple question…but I also get the impression you haven’t a clue what you are talking about here.
Think what you will of me personally. What I’ve said here stands on its own, independent of who said it. Instead of using logos (appeal to logic) you turn to ethos (appeal to credibility) to try to justify your incessant arguing. I’m not going to play into it. Like I said, what I’ve said above stands on its own, independent of who said it.
So latin philosophy instead of facts? FOR ONCE I would love to see you bring your facts to the table rather than spinning drama.
“If you’re a better driver, you will go faster. I am just a crappy drag racer”
That was him attempting to say the car can run far faster than it did. If you had more than ZERO passes at the drag strip (which I’m beginning to think is true about you jibberjive) you would know that when you run the car reasonably well, your trap speed is your trap speed, give or take a couple MPH. If you run flawlessly you’re not going to find 15 mph. You’re just not. I have probably 200 passes in my Audis at the strip. I have watched thousands of other cars run passes at the strip. I have consolidated all the quarter mile times from all the audiforums for all the audi platforms on this frigging site. I’ve got news for you…you don’t see wild swings in MPH unless something drastic happens or you make a huge change to the car. ET? Sure. Not MPH.
Why not just answer the questions? Why not present your argument for why a car that makes 800 whp at 3700 lbs traps 137 with an O1E trans. Why not explain your claims about the ‘powerband’ (you clearly haven’t looked at the dyno sheet…it makes 600+whp/wtq for the entire dragstrip other than 2 seconds in 1st gear on the launch, which is off probably 4000-5000 RPM with antilag and launch control).
It’s pretty clear you’re not put off by the claims of the seller because you don’t understand how disconnected those two numbers are…your ignorance makes you think everything is just fine. If the dyno was corrected all to hell and that wasn’t mentioned, don’t you think ‘it is what it is’ when selling a 30,000 a4 goes out the window?
See, you’re part of the problem. You have all these kids buying dyno sheets in the B5 world, and when people say ‘hmm…those dyno numbers and performance numbers don’t jive with the norm’ , the dyno tricksters have people like you to protect them. Rather than focus on the facts that myself and snow trooper have indicated don’t really look right, you instead create a side drama that is about sweet fuck all frankly.
End of the day, the dyno tricksters win, while people like you feel as though you have done some good. Reality? Everyone loses.
I didn’t even see the 1/4 mile video, lol… Now I see what you’re saying… That was a clean pass, there certainly isn’t much more mph in it.
Looking at the dyno graph I think it’s just the problem of sure, it knocked off near 800WHP but look where it does… It’s not like that car is making 800WHP for very long, actually it never did, it made 794 for a split second. Bottom line in my opinion is area under the curve translates to exactly that… Hits near 800whp at redline, and throughout the entire RPM range he’s just building to it. A car with a 600whp peak but a better powerband will do the same. Maybe just a bad turbo choice. The 034 Motorsport car trapped just under 150mph, but I think that’s because of it being a stripped track car.
snowtrooper, guruman, jhm all trapped in the 130s, and all made 600 whp PEAK POWER or less.
This car makes 600 whp at 5000 RPM, increasing to 800 whp at 7200 RPM…!
600 whp is the LOWEST HP level this car will see during a dragstrip pass. The cars that have trapped the same, or higher, saw 600 whp as their PEAK. Starting to see why this looks weird?
The area under that curve, with respect to the quarter mile, is fantastic. Driving around town might be a bit annoying, but balls out racing it’s awesome. You launch from ~5000 RPM (I’m guessing but he said he has anti-lag and launch control), dip a few hundred RPM, quattro grabs, and you accelerate to redline then shift to 2nd.
As of that shift into 2nd gear, he is right in the meat of his powerband. He will be making anywhere from 650 WTQ to 560 WTQ the entire time. He’ll be making anywhere from 640 WHP at 5000 RPM to 800 WHP at 7000 RPM.
The shift into second gear happens around 35 mph and probably in under 2 seconds.
The rest of the track, all 1260 feet of it, he is right in the meat of that powerband, no lift shifting, never seeing less than 600 whp.
What I say should be evaluated on the merit of what is said, not who is saying it. You love to turn the convo that direction when you try to justify your indelible love of arguing everything and everyone. Sorry I won’t play into your credibility battle.
[quote=“sakimano,post:26,topic:3633”]
You’re putting words into my mouth and making the argument about something I didn’t even say. I never said he would see a 15MPH increase or some wild swing in trap. I have only said that the car did what it did, it put down 794whp on a random dyno and ran a 10.9sec. Regarding the “if you’re a better driver than me than you’ll make a better pass,” I agree on grounds of simple logic; if someone is a better driver, they will likely make a better pass. And it makes sense that that could happen here, considering that he went to the track only twice with the setup. Nowhere did I say he’d see +15mph or some crazy high trap. Guru, the second fastest B5 in North America, only trapped 3 MPH more with significantly less weight and over 50+ drag passes.
Either way though, that’s not the point I’m even trying to address. Again, my real point is: the car in it’s current form is what it is and did what it did, 794whp on a random dyno and 10.9 in the 1/4.
I wasn’t aware that jhm had dyno’d and released numbers for their RS6 car. I hate to break it to you, but you can’t compare random peak dyno numbers from different dynos at different locations under different conditions as if there is some sort of 1:1 basis for comparison. You can’t compare numbers from a dynapack hub dyno in Fall in Canada, to say a dyno dynamics dyno in California in summer, to what you imagine one setup might put down at whatever dyno JHM uses, to a Mustang dyno in Washington, to a happy Mustang dyno with 6 fans in a different part of California, to a dynojet in Colorado, to a Mustang dyno in New Jersey, to a Land & Sea dyno in California, to a MAHA dyno at your local city, to… you get the point. You’re getting caught up in dyno numbers when they shouldn’t be given the weight that you’re giving them.
Your sentence right here succinctly illustrates my entire point in this thread, there is no argument to be presented for an 800whp car at 3700lbs with an 01E trapping 137mph, because the car verifiably did exactly that.There is no argument to be had, it did what it did. How much you want to speculate about the future potential of the car, and how much credence/weight you personally place on random dyno numbers is up to you.
[quote=“sakimano,post:26,topic:3633”]
You couldn’t have skewed this more completely 180 degrees from reality. I’m doing the exact opposite of what you are saying. I’m saying, since the simple truth is that dynos and their numbers are all over the place and because of the fact there doesn’t exist a ‘standard dyno’, there doesn’t exist a ‘standard ‘whp’’, I’m say to NOT, emphasized NOT give dyno numbers the credence that many people do. If anything, this hurts the marketing hype of any company trying to use trumped up dyno numbers, because I don’t place value on individual dyno numbers.
YOU are the one trying to compare random dyno numbers on random cars, as if those numbers can be compared on some objective baseline. You see 800whp and you freak out because “what about X, Y, Z and blah blah blah?!??!”, whereas I see 800whp and say “whatever” because I know that ALL dyno numbers should be taken with a grain of salt when comparing cars (independent of whether this car in question had put down 650whp or 900whp).
When going through a thread on AZ I stumbled on this post by snowtrooper himself that concisely illustrates exactly why this shouldn’t even be an argument in the first place (this shows a ~140whp discrepancy at the 400whp level, just by swapping dynos under similar conditions):
All we have said is that the dyno numbers are out of whack with the quarter mile performance. That’s it. The fact that he’s selling it and advertising it as a 796 whp car is what is a little shady, because as much as you like to say ‘it dyno’d 796 so it is what it is’ that isn’t the case. Dynos can be made to read whatever you want…and it looks like this one was.
He then says that the quarter mile time is not as good as it should be, because he is a terrible drag racer. Why? Because he knows the dyno is way out of whack with his quarter mile achievement. He is not a quarter mile expert by any means, so he thinks that he can say that to intimate the car is capable of much more. unfortunately he doesn’t seem to understand that the trap speed will not vary much. THAT is what it is…aand it isn’t going to change much unles you change the car. He has launch control, no lift shift…and ran clean. What the hell could a ‘better’ driver do to change the MPH??? Again, you keep thinking a better driver will matter, but also again, this shows your inexperience with the quarter mile and how trap speeds work.
So far the guys who understand the quartermile and who understand power these cars make in order to achieve different trap speeds on clean runs have all realized that the car is not running like the dyno numbers would indicate the car is capable of running.
The one guy who doesn’t have experience with the quarter mile (you) is still talking about everything but the facts, and is instead turning this into a debate about the merits of dyno numbers. I know dyno numbers are crap and can be skewed. They are valued by the uninitiated as ‘proof’ of power…and when someone sells his car saying ‘it made 796 whp and can make way more as it is only running XX PSI’ it is clear who they are trying to hook with that pitch.
p.s. jibberjive, Guruman claims he was full interior and was missing only the fuel tank (he used a fuel cell) and used a LW battery. He ran 4 tenths quicker but more importantly 3 mph faster…and also did so with 125-150 whp less than this car.
So similar weight, same transmission, huge power handicap for guru and yet he managed to crush this car. If his car weighed 150 lbs less than this one (avant vs. sedan) and maybe another 100 lbs of other weight reduction, that might explain 2 tenths and 1-2 of the MPH, but that leaves the 125-150 whp power gap hanging out there…
^^^So, you know that dyno numbers are ‘crap,’ ‘skewed’ and have no objective basis to be used as an across the board measurement baseline to ‘prove power’…
^^^but you are trying to use them to objectively compare cars, indicate what a car ‘should be’ doing, and to try to prove power?
Yes you are. That’s the whole fucking point. The dyno numbers are b.s.
It’s not an 800 whp car, and is not performing like one in the slightest. It’s performing like a nice 550 whp 550 wtq B5 S4, or thereabouts. It’s performing like a built motor RS6 with a good modlist on race or meth. It’s performing like a good GT car with a built motor. It’s performing like a K04 car + nitrous. It’s not performing like a Veyron.
We are saying the trap speeds tell the truth, and the dynos can be manipulated to read whatever one wants. If selling a product, or if selling one’s 12 year old A4 for $30,000, using dyno numbers to make headlines is a bit lame. Taking your quarter mile time and saying it only ran so slow (relative to it’s insane power claims from the dyno) because you are a terrible driver is a bit dishonest. You can’t fuck up the trap speed with launch control and antilag.
So yes, you are missing the point…or else you are making the same point me and snowtrooper and (god forbid) FAW made earlier.
125-150 less whp verified by what? Two different brand dynos, in two different places, under two different sets of conditions? For all we know, Guru’s previous car would have put down 800whp on the same dyno as the VR6 car did, if they were to have run at the same time. Maybe it would have put down 600whp. Point is that we don’t know what it would have put down and we have no basis to make a direct comparison. Did you not see Jared’s (snowtrooper’s) quote of literally 140whp swing at the K04 level, under similar conditions, just by switching dyno’s?
Also, instead of saying what Guru’s car did/didn’t have to try to hypothesize what it might have weighed, why don’t you ask Guru what his A4 amalgamation weighed on the scale? I don’t know if he actually weighed it or not, but I guarantee it was nowhere near 3700lbs.
While you’re at it, why don’t you ask Guru how much he improved on his trap speed with that car from his first times at the track up through his record-breaking run?
Are you really not understanding that you are directly contradicting yourself within a single post? Are you really not getting that the basis, the entire foundation of your argument of what an ‘800whp’ (550whp, or whatever other horsepower car) ‘should do’ is founded on a false, non-objective premise?
It’s as if I were to outstretch a rubberband and mark 1" increments on it. I then let the rubber band hang free and measure a nickel with it. I mark the nickel off as 3". Then I outstretch it and measure an orange. The orange is 3.5", or .5" bigger than the nickel. Then I go do some deductive analysis and extrapolate conclusions based on these measurements. Someone tells me that those measurements (and thus conclusions) that I took with my rubber band are pretty much irrelevant in trying to compare the nickel and orange to each other. I then say, “Of course, duh! I’m not dumb and I agree with you that the rubberband measurement means nothing. …however the fact that the nickel is .5” smaller than the orange indicates that the orange does X and Y in comparison to the nickel." That is an irrational thought process: to agree that something has a non-objective basis, and then to try to directly draw objective conclusions/comparisons from it.
With the rubberband analogy, imagine how much worse it would be if people all over the US were making their own rubberband-rulers and fighting over the internet that their nickle measures 2.5", not 3".
The dyno means little with regards to comparisons; that 800whp car performs how an 800whp car should, because it is an 800whp car and performed however it did.
I’m pretty sure the argument is over the fact that a potential buyer is going to see this as something that will run with a bugatti based on the dyno #s, and would end up being disappointed. Amirite? If we can all agree on that then I don’t see the point in continuing it.
I’m sure Saki will instantly agree with what you’re saying and skip over my previous two posts to avert having to get himself out of the hole that he’s dug with this illogical BS.
But my perspective on the disappointment thing, disappointment is dependent on expectations. Expectations that aren’t explicitly stated by the seller are completely up to the buyer’s thoughts and analysis. If someone sees a random dyno plot, interprets, from some reason, that a dyno plot means that a car will run with a Bugatti, he might be disappointed if it doesn’t (or he might be pleasantly surprised and affirmed if it does). This ad in particular didn’t mention a Bugatti. We can’t control what other people think and analyze, we can only give them information. Nothing but honest information was put into that ad. If someone doesn’t put huge stock in random dyno plots, as they shouldn’t, then there is little likelihood that they’ll be disppointed based on that ad, as nothing was presented in the ad except the facts and a suggestion that the car might go faster in the hands of someone else.
Except this is the basis of 50% of the content that Saki posts about and hounds on, and this baseless foundation is the catalyst for 90% of the arguments that he constantly starts. Maybe if he doesn’t let defensiveness blind him, he will see that what he is saying is often based on a completely false premise, and maybe he’ll think twice about running every single thread into the ground.
I agree guruman could have dynod 800 whp on a happy reading dyno…and I would have said it was lame to boast about making 800 who if he did when we know that its only because it was a happy dyno.
