It would have been as legitimate as any other dyno, because there is no set ‘whp’ to make one better than the other.
Get it?
Also, nobody was bragging when you decided to trash this thread. The dyno plot listed in the for sale ad is the only dyno plot he has for the car, so he posted the relevant technical information in a for sale ad. There was no need to bomb this thread.
The argument saki is making is that while a dyno can be skewed a 1/4 trap speed crossed with weight cannot. While there is no such thing as HP really, there is an acceptable concept of it. That comes from brake torque.
You both are arguing circles around each other. Jibber, you are correct in that it ran what it ran and it did what it did. You are incorrect to nulify sakis argument due to the fact that dyno numbers mean jack. He is basing his opinion on acceptable brake tq conversions from known weight and traps. He said the trap is more like a real life 550ish wheel, which is pretty accurate assuming he was 100% wot.
Saki you are incorrect to call him a scammer or whatever. He is just some dude, while I personally know he is more than just some random idiot and actually a highly informed enthusiast I am not passing any judgement, he posted his hail marry dyno and a legit slip in order to sell, that’s all.
Independent of what you or Saki (or the general consensus or whomever) have in their head as the ‘actual’ unit measurement for WHP, it’s a unit that is variable enough in it’s measurement from machine to machine that the machine output numbers can’t be directly analyzed on a small-ish scale between different machines, on different cars, and under different operating conditions. In the rubberband example that I posted, there exists an actual measurement definition of a true inch, but it didn’t matter what the actual true measurement for 1" is, you still can’t directly compare the numbers obtained from stretched out and squished up rubberband scales.
The measurement machines for WHP (dyno’s) definitely aren’t uniform enough to legitimately ask a question such as “Even though there might be 300lb weight difference between the cars and they were dyno’d on completely different dyno’s and under different conditions, how come car X, which ran Y time, dyno’d 650whp while Z car ran W time and dyno’d 800whp?”
The answer to that perennial passive-aggressive question is because they were from different freaking dynos on different days under different conditions and you can’t directly compare dyno numbers to try to dictate performance comparisons. We don’t know what they would have put down on the other dyno. It’s simple as that, and anyone that is informed of the fact that the dyno’s can’t be directly compared, yet still asks these direct comparison questions is either acting irrationally or deliberately trying to skew the uninformed (or maybe trying to self-affirm a wrong stance to save face, since Saki is so worried about his credibility?).
Take dyno numbers for what they are and don’t get all huffy about trying to directly cross-reference numbers that you shouldn’t be directly cross-referencing (not directed toward Jared).
Saki, do you by chance have the B5 S4 1/4mi list that you can send me in excel format? If I get time I’d like to preform a statistical analysis to possibly set an objective trend line of what a B5 S4 of a certain weight and a certain trap speed “should” be putting down as whp. I’ll be transparent with the data and my methodology as well, so everyone can pick it apart if it was flawed. Does the data exist in an excel format, and would you be willing to send it to me if so?
Snow trooper…I don’t think I called him a scammer. I just think he presents his data in such a way that it may led people to think the car is more than it really is.
The measurement that CAN be skewed/off (the dyno) is posted as is without any “this is a happy dyno so take the numbers with a grain if salt” or anything.
The measurement that CAN’T be fudged (trap speed) was presented as “this is slow because I am a terrible driver”.
This is the standard M.O. for people whose timeslip isn’t matching the dyno they have been posting about. You don’t need to be pulling s scam to do that. Ego gets in the way all the time. Look at the guys who blab about their dyno endlessly then run a shit time and come up with endless excuses to justify their dyno and the money they spent.
Jibberjive I can’t be bothered to reply to your emotional blather. You still seem to think we all don’t know how dynos work. We do. You seem to get that there are fair dyno results and there are inflated dyno results, and low results. Well based on what we are looking at here, this is an inflated dyno result. An outlier, based on the non-skewable result (the trap speed)
You CAN actually surmise trap speed from dyno results and vice versa based on a large sample of dyno results and trap speeds where we have honest dyno info and we chuck the outliers. That’s what a few of us did here…and the comparison leads us to believe the variable/skewable result presented (dyno) is one of those outliers that we should chuck.
Though trap speed is far less dependent on good driving, it can indeed be improved with practice (or conversely, it can be screwed up). I’ll keep it simple and use Guruman as an illustration. His first times out at the track were around 131MPH trap. His record times (according to his AZ sig) are 10.58 @ 140.17 mph &
10.51 @ 137.56 mph. Not only did he improve from his many track outings, but the car was making that same amount of power when it ran both of those record times, and there’s a 3MPH variability there. This is just a single illustration that trap speed can indeed be improved (though I do agree that it’s one of the variables less-influenced by driver skill).
Yeah, don’t be bothered with responding to something that shows your bias and logical flaws, just skip over that part lol.
I know you know exactly how dynos work, and that’s exactly why I call you out on trying to compare dyno numbers directly even when you know better.
I don’t think there are ‘fair’ dyno numbers. I do know that there are a spectrum of dyno numbers from high to low, but I wouldn’t term them ‘fair’ cause that seems to imply that somehow some dyno results are better or worse than others. Dyno numbers are neutral information that, in analysis, need to be correctly used for what they are, with the right amount of weight put on them.
If you actually do already have a concrete, non-subjective statistical analysis of B5 S4 data, showing trends based on dyno, trap speed and weight, I’d love to view the data, results and methodology. Data like that shouldn’t be kept private, and it would save me the time doing the same thing myself (and it would give some concrete evidence to back your strong-held notions of what a B5 S4 ‘should’ and ‘shouldn’t’ do). Will you share the data with the forum?
It doesn’t copy/paste correctly. Do you have it in a format where it could easily copy/paste correctly into cells?
copy/paste into a text file, then import as space delimited… it gets you mostly there, just have to adjust some columns
did that and made the file with user/car/times, the other stuff I didnt bother sorting into columns since it doesnt sound like you need it.
guruman tweaked his car a number of times jibberhive. He didn’t run 131 then the next pass run 140. From one week to the next he tweaked his tune. It’s mentioned in his post…he peaked at 29 psi, but held boost at 28 psi on the record run, and peaked at 29 but held at 25-26 on the earlier runs. What he was doing on the 131 mph passes…who knows, but it was certainly not the same as on the 140 pass. Again…you are showing everyone what you don’t know by making statements like that.
His goal was 10.5X @ 14X MPH and he pushed the tune more and more and more to get there.
As for the other questions, I don’t feel I am ‘on the hot seat to prove myself’ here. What you’re asking me to do by sharing mounds of information is to basically spoon feed you to help you understand…but that’s not really ‘for the forum’ now is it? As I mentioned the whole thread is full of people who ‘get’ what I said, and what snow trooper said and what euroswagr said and what FAW said. The only one still acting like a baby bird is you. So no, I won’t vomit my data into your mouth.
First one of you two that stops posting about this wins the argument. It’s my call and I dare you to challenge it.
/Thread.
lol fine by me.
Now…what about the guy selling the car. Isn’t it always the way that guys do these monster builds, then sell them? It’s weird. It’s like trying to get a hot girl to fuck you…then you do…and you want a new girl. Wonder what Haenzel will do now.
Anyone think it will sell for $30,000 or thereabouts? I’m not sure what a VR6 motor build costs, but if it’s anything like a B5 S4, it seems like this car won’t sell for $30k. Not that a motor build is cheap by any means…but I believe there was a widebody built motor car for like $20,000 in the classifieds, wasn’t there? An actual B5 S4
He will get near 25, where are you getting 30? Some dipshit will want it because it unique. You can build the car for 20-25 so someone will pay that to save labor.
Thanks, I’ll try that if I get time to do an analysis.
So you’ll spend hours and hours consolidating 1/4 mi information because it’s important for you to have this data accessible by the public, but you won’t make public a simple graph analysis (assuming you really have a concrete B5 analysis) that objectively interprets this information… because someone you dislike would like to see the data as well? If your concrete analysis for the B5 S4 really does exist, you honestly think having that data to consider would beiinefficientficientit only me, and not the entire B5 community? I have my own conceptions of what a B5 should do based on years of experience of personally analyzing the times/data (including every time that you have listed) in my head, but I’ve never done, nor seen done, a concrete statistical analysis on the B5. If you honestly have this information and hold out on sharing it with the entire community, that is simply selfish. On the other hand, if you honestly don’t have that for a B5 in particular, then it would make sense that you can’t/won’t post it, and it looks like it’s leaning that direction.
And the people you list that ‘get it’ in this thread are most definitely not the ones freaking out about what some random dyno says, trying to compare random dyno numbers to other cars that haven’t even hit a dyno yet, and calling everyone up into arms to ‘call someone out’. That would be only you.
That’s the thing…I don’t dislike you. I’m indifferent. Its the internet. I like some of what you do but I don’t get the verbal diarrhea and all the drama. Anyway I an following snow trooper and dropping the discussion. Enjoy three quarter mile database.
Find some times for us to add!
So you won’t share and contribute your objective B5 S4 1/4 mi analysis to the forum? Sounds generous (more like sounds like you don’t have what you’re talking about).
Do you have any dyno numbers (and hopefully which dyno) for any of the times that are listed in the 1/4 mi database that I could have to do my own analysis (without having to google ever single entry’s screenname to try find out if/what their corresponding dyno numbers were)? I will share my findings transparently with the forums for all to benefit from, but I need dyno numbers to do an analysis on dyno numbers.
btw, for anyone interested I forgot that the quarter mile table is just a big html table which excel can easily interpret
Ribbon>Data Tab>Get External Data Pane>From Web>http://audirevolution.net/quartermile/ >import… it sets up an external data link that you can refresh in the future to update the table
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B5_1P0JF1equTEZSQmhjNzRNLU0
I don’t understand you. When did I say I had some spreadsheet/graph lol. You are delusional… I have done some research on the topic but nothing formal. Enough experience on the forum and yiu can usually have a good idea what a trap means on the dyno or vice versa. Maybe you just need to do some homework. Looking forward to the paper you will present on the subject. It will be due on tuesday.
have fun searching jibberjive.
This post above with statistics buzzwords, talking about getting a ‘large sample of dyno results and trap speeds’, ‘chucking outliers’, ‘the comparison’, and implications of working with multiple people certainly seems to infer something more formal and objective than just looking at a database and selectively eyeballing it. I was hoping for something more concretely objective and statistically based than just your opinion.
Over the years I’ve seen all of the B5 S4 1/4 mile numbers and dyno data that you sourced from online (likely more, if we’re being honest), and sorry, but I don’t consider your opinion on what the B5 S4 ‘should’ or ‘shouldn’t’ do as authoritative. You know what is authoritative? Undeniable statistics to tell you what something ‘should do’. That’s why I was hoping that you had what you seemed to imply you had. But since you don’t, and you’re unwilling to contribute (or don’t have) dyno numbers for the setups in the database for a concrete analysis, it looks like a legit analysis might have to wait until I have too much free time to try to google each setup’s weight and dyno numbers.
Until then, you’ll have your opinion of what you think the true value of one ‘WHP’ means, I’ll have mine, st will have his, as well as everyone else who cares to look at the past setups and try to eyeball guess what an S4 ‘should’ do, and the rubberband analogy will live on with no truly objective yardstick.
At this point I have no clue why the B5 guys still want dyno sheets or care for the 3rd gear pull. There is so many empty results and dyno sheet racing its laughable.
when you look at the the B5 dyno sheet has been just as poitless as the supra dyno sheet. The b5 guys clearly don['t know there hystrory. 500whp after another only to find out that the 500whp car barly gets into teh 12s.
Not one person will say… oh go get your dyno sheet and meet me here tonight. We will pull them out and see who has the best car. The dyno is a over hyped gimik thats been played out.
You build you car to drive on the street and in the end it seems there are stacks of big hp dyno sheets and sticks of actual fast cars.
maybe it sthe last of the b5 guys holding on for dear life that there cars can still be fast. You can’t be told your 600whp car is s turd if you never really put it in a honest test of performance.
when anyone can show a constant list of performance baised off a dyno. Ill keep laughing at the people who think thats a good bentch mark.