Advice Requested - CEL's (cam position actuators & intake flaps)

[lliejk]

Hey there. I haven’t posted in a while and unfortunately I have a myriad of issues to deal with. It was time for inspection and my brake light just came on, so to be proactive I did the pads, cleared what had on previous inspection visits been a few intermittent misfire codes, drove the car for about 30 minutes, no CEL while driving. Headed out this AM to get the PA State Inspection/Emissions done and CEL was on. Pulled the codes and saw some new and disturbing ones. Cleared them anyway and went to me appointment fully expecting to fail and I wasn’t disappointed (I did the like the Akebono Ceramic pads I just installed!)

After spending the past 4 hours looking (and unfortunately not finding a whole lot of specifics to my codes) I have decided that I should proceed with my planned carbon cleaning, replace the left motor mount N164 - Open Circuit (I have the eBahn Bentley stuff - looks straightforward), do the coils and the either send the injectors out or replace them and most likely get the JHM spacer.

The guidance I am looking for is what to focus on for these errors:

Bank 1 both (A&B) camshaft position actuators (P2088 & )2090) short to ground 9.779v happened simultaneously at 140 RPM’s (on start I am assuming)

Bank 2 both (A&B) camshaft position actuators (P2092 & P2094) short to ground 9.652v I am guessing simultaneously (almost) at 142 RPM’s 9.652v (guessing since there is no date/time stamp

Along with:

Instake Manifold Flap 1 Bank 1 P2009 - short to ground Same exact numbers as the Bank 1 actuators above

Intake Manifold Tuning Valve Control Circuit Bank 1 P0661 short to ground at 953 RPM’s but 23 seconds later

So, I can’t swap Bank 1 to Bank 2 for the cam actuators since both are throwing errors, from what I can tell short to grounds COULD be bad electronics. I have not read any values or performed any tests with VCDS (I need to research what those steps would even be for the above errors). I could swap Bank 1 to Bank 2 for the Intake Flap & Tuning valve (once I locate them - hah!) to see what happens there.

In general the engine isn’t running horrible, but the MPG has dropped significantly at this point. I started noticing issues around 150K miles (197K are on the clock now) but with a 997 Turbo engine drop and multiple issues to address and finally fixing the ABS sensor (actually a wiring issue) on the V10 early last summer, I just ran out of steam to do the carbon job by the time winter rolled around. I think I have avoided the carbon buildup so long compared to others due to the fact that I drive all of my cars the way they are meant to be driven rather than pussy footing around and being worried about gas mileage.

I will update the post with some pictures and information as I tackle each of these things so you guys will know what I found.

So thanks for taking the time to read this, and if any of you have any suggestions or BTDT’s for what I am about to embark on, I would be very appreciative of the advice.

Take car and stay safe,

Ed

[justincredible]

So the first thing to note is the car got the codes on start up. That isn’t too bad of an issue as some of the modules can flake out on start up.

Clear the codes and see if any come right back. That will tell you where to start. I would go clear the codes and then check back in and let us know if the codes come right back or not. When you clear the codes make sure to leave the car only in acc mode.

[lliejk]

Finally got a chance to get back to this.

Cleared the codes sitting parked in the car, start button pressed once. I have a few codes (alarm horn, vent motor, etc I need to deal with, but the engine codes I cleared (by going into each module), stayed cleared.

I copied them into another txt file and pushed the off button, then back on for another VCDS session (without starting it). No change (none was expected.). Then I shut off and started the car for another set of values. This time the same codes I am concerned about re-appeared and also seemingly early with higher RPM’s of a cold start.

I’ll get my kids car out of the way in the next day or so and then slip the S6 in to start working through these codes.

Ed

[lliejk]

I am almost finished with my kid’s A4 (just waiting on the crank pulley bolts) so I decided to do some more googling. One thing that was interesting was a couple of posts on various sites that said to look for common electrical paths for the faults being seen when there are multiple short to ground faults.

Well interestingly enough there are three wiring diagram pages that cover all of the faults I am getting. One of the suggestions was to look for common points of travel the current would make, the other is to disconnect one device at a time to see the effects. And another caution was just don’t go replacing relays or fuses since the problem could be downstream.

So the bank 1 camshaft/flap/t-stat errors are all on page No. 69/13.

The bank 2 camshaft/left engine mount are all on page No. 69/24.

The after run pump is by itself on page No. 69/14 and may just be a bad after run pump.

My feeling is that I have a wiring/device issue with the majority of the errors. The question is what is the best tactic to find it?

If anyone has any BTDT’s let me know. It is my intention to get out my multimeter and start checking along with the removal of connectors to devices on each circuit to see what happens. I will also be checking fuses.

The only common issue prior is a HPFP that was tripping Fuse 5 (that is the same fuse for bank 2 camshaft actuators and the left engine mount, but not related to the other items. I replaced the HPFP and all has been well for many months, so that may be a red herring. The harnesses are the same (D107) for bank 1 cams and the after run pump, but it is D108 for the bank 2 errors, so unless I am really unlucky or have a ravenous mouse I am not sure they are much of a clue either.

Anyway I have some sleuthing to do but at least I don’t think I have a bad intake (at $2K I wasn’t looking forward to that).

I should have the car in the garage soon, and I will update what I find.

Ed

[justincredible]

Ed,

A few helpful tips that can help many of us work along with you. Always post the full vag com freeze frame data. All of that can be really helpful in support of what your doing.

Also in vag com you can do output tests. These can help in working through things like this and might be a good road to help.

Lastly for helping all of us and others. When and if you get a wire digram feel free to post it. So others might be able to help work along with you in that aspect.

[lliejk]

Good advice. Here are the relevant VCDS faults:

Address 01: Engine (BXA) Labels: Redir Fail!
Part No SW: 4F1 910 562 A HW: 4F1 907 552 B
Component: 5.2L V10/4V FSI ª0010
Revision: 5HH02— Serial number:
Coding: 01050009190F0160
Shop #: WSC 44635 001 1048576
VCID: 23452D04E207519E3F-8076

6 Faults Found:
008328 - Bank 1 Camshaft A (Intake) Position Actuator
P2088 - 002 - Short to Ground
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01100010
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 255
Mileage: 317993 km
Time Indication: 0

         Freeze Frame:
                RPM: 1269 /min
                Load: 58.4 %
                Speed: 0.0 km/h
                Temperature: 15.0°C
                Temperature: 21.0°C
                Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
                Voltage: 9.906 V

008336 - Bank 1 Camshaft B (Exhaust) Position Actuator
P2090 - 002 - Short to Ground
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01100010
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 255
Mileage: 317993 km
Time Indication: 0

         Freeze Frame:
                RPM: 1269 /min
                Load: 58.4 %
                Speed: 0.0 km/h
                Temperature: 15.0°C
                Temperature: 21.0°C
                Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
                Voltage: 9.906 V

008201 - Intake Manifold Flap; Bank 1
P2009 - 002 - Short to Ground
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01100010
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 255
Mileage: 317993 km
Time Indication: 0

         Freeze Frame:
                RPM: 1269 /min
                Load: 58.4 %
                Speed: 0.0 km/h
                Temperature: 15.0°C
                Temperature: 21.0°C
                Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
                Voltage: 9.906 V

001432 - Thermostat for Mapped Engine Cooling (F265)
P0598 - 002 - Short to Plus
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01100010
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 255
Mileage: 317993 km
Time Indication: 0

         Freeze Frame:
                RPM: 1269 /min
                Load: 58.4 %
                Speed: 0.0 km/h
                Temperature: 15.0°C
                Temperature: 21.0°C
                Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
                Voltage: 10.795 V

006438 - Relay for Aux Coolant Pump (J496)
P1926 - 002 - Short to Ground
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01100010
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 255
Mileage: 317993 km
Time Indication: 0

         Freeze Frame:
                RPM: 1269 /min
                Load: 58.4 %
                Speed: 0.0 km/h
                Temperature: 15.0°C
                Temperature: 21.0°C
                Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
                Voltage: 10.795 V

006435 - Please Check DTC Memory of ECU Number 2
P1923 - 008 -
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01101000
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 255
Mileage: 317993 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2020.04.04
Time: 19:11:16

         Freeze Frame:
                RPM: 1499 /min
                Load: 31.0 %
                Speed: 0.0 km/h
                Temperature: 15.0°C
                Temperature: 20.0°C
                Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
                Voltage: 11.430 V

and for Engine 2:

Address 11: Engine II Labels: Redir Fail!
Part No SW: 4F1 910 562 A HW: 4F1 907 552 B
Component: 5.2L V10/4V FSI ª0010
Revision: 5HH02— Serial number:
Coding: 01050009190F0160
Shop #: WSC 44635 001 1048576
VCID: 23452D04E207519E3F-8076

3 Faults Found:
008338 - Bank 2 Camshaft A (Intake) Position Actuator
P2092 - 002 - Short to Ground
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01100010
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 255
Mileage: 317993 km
Time Indication: 0

         Freeze Frame:
                RPM: 1911 /min
                Load: 45.5 %
                Speed: 0.0 km/h
                Temperature: 15.0°C
                Temperature: 21.0°C
                Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
                Voltage: 10.414 V

008340 - Bank 2 Camshaft B (Exhaust) Position Actuator
P2094 - 002 - Short to Ground
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01100010
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 255
Mileage: 317993 km
Time Indication: 0

         Freeze Frame:
                RPM: 1911 /min
                Load: 45.5 %
                Speed: 0.0 km/h
                Temperature: 15.0°C
                Temperature: 21.0°C
                Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
                Voltage: 10.414 V

005491 - Left Engine Mount Solenoid Valve (N144)
P1573 - 004 - Open Circuit
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01100100
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 255
Mileage: 317993 km
Time Indication: 0

         Freeze Frame:
                RPM: 1911 /min
                Load: 45.5 %
                Speed: 0.0 km/h
                Temperature: 15.0°C
                Temperature: 21.0°C
                Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
                Voltage: 10.668 V

Wiring Diagrams:

Ed

[justincredible]

Ok Ed.

See the data appears to maybe being helpful. The code shows the car is running when the code pops up. Generally if its fully electronic you can see these things at key on without the car running. Now this isn’t always the case but in a lot of cases it’s the case.

It’s not very likely that both banks would go bad at the same time so I would say there is something most likely electronic going on. But you can also try to log into the module and then log the camshaft position. Just as another step.

[lliejk]

Thanks. You are correct. If I clear and then only turn the key, no CEL. As soon as I run it, CEL. The car won’t be in for about a week, but I will update what I find then.

Thanks again,

Ed

[lliejk]

Vehicle is in the garage finally. A4 had some other minor things the kid wanted resolved/installed (like a hardwire dash cam), but the S6 is finally in.

I started my research and I am torn. For the T-Stat cooling I saw a frayed wire down to it’s last strands. Disconnecting it returns an Open Circuit now, but that wire will definitely need some attention.

I began to compile information about the actuators and testing, and I probably will use the VCDS to do that, but should I just start dealing with the carbon clean and all it entails and continue to look at these errors, or should I resolve the errors first? My gut tells me to stick with diagnosis first before carbon clean.

I am going to continue to read up before I do anything.

Ed

[lliejk]

#1 - Thermostat for Mapped Engine Cooling (F265) P0598 - 002 - Short to Plus

Frayed wire, will have to patch in new piece

#2 - Intake Manifold Flap; Bank 1 P2009 - 002 - Short to Ground

The circlip holding the operating rod to the rotating piece was not in place and the rod was not connected. The rotating piece that goes in the engine can slide outward without much force (Is this normal?).

My next step for troubleshooting is to disconnect the connectors at the cam actuators, run the test on VCDS and see if I get voltage at the connections. I am a novice with VCDS’s higher functions like measuring blocks and tests, but I have been reading as much as I can, although I am still fuzzy on what measuring blocks show the cam information specifically. The link on VAG-COM shows numbers like 090 through - 098 but either nothing displays at all or I am unsure of what it is trying to tell me. I will keep looking.

Ed

[lliejk]

When my HPFP went I remembered that two things happened:

1. Bunch of faults with a CEL (and the car would stall in gear)
2. Fried Fuse 5 in the engine compartment (someone remind me to contact Audi and have them move the box 2 inches forward)

So after removing cover, wipers and cowl, Fuse 3 was fried. Replaced, cleared codes, ran engine, read codes and mostly expected ones showed up. However when I ran the output tests I never heard anything clicking for the cam actuator tests. We already know the T-sat wire was frayed, so could that have been the only thing that fired the fuse or are the actuators bad in a way that would cause the fuse to fry?

I also now have:

Coolant Circulation Pump (V50) 001 - Upper Limit Exceeded - Intermittent

But the limited info out there says just to replace it. Upper Limit Exceeded posts (for other devices) talk about resistance, so I wonder if that is frying the fuse? The other (odd) advice I saw was that if no CEL was being thrown, don’t worry about it. I will probably order a aux pump and do it with the carbon clean.

My electronics knowledge is my weakest point, but I try and learn more each time. I will try and monitor whatever I should be looking for in the 2 wire connector to the cam actuators (I still don’t know what I am looking for exactly on each wire).

I also see what I think is PS fluid coming down the front of the engine down to the pan. I need to look more closely but I hate PS fluid. Anyway, I think I am good for now. If I run into anything interesting or get any more information I will post again.

Thanks,

Ed

[lliejk]

I was wrong about the PS Fluid, it was oil. I had decided early on I would be removing the lock carrier and radiator since I had a coolant leak (looks like a hose on the passenger side near the Aux pump). After getting everything out of the way I could tell it was oil coming from the valley:

I figured I would find it once the IM was off. The IM removal was fairly straightforward, though I left one fuel line (large on on the left) and the two rear engine hoists on. I have no idea how they get them off (Maybe a crows foot for the fuel line and some low profile triple square tool for the hoist brackets). While doing this I also noticed the very beginning of valve gasket failure on the driver side and oil making it’s way down the passenger side, so valve gaskets will be part of this work.

While I was surprised to see some nut shells from an uninvited guest, what really shocked me was what was in the #1 and #6 intake paths:

#1 (if the first cylinder on the left is #1):

#6 (1st cylinder Driver side):

And the source of the leak (common among some of the comments on some posts about carbon cleaning):

My guess is those two plastic parts that got wedged in the upper chamber areas (maybe a good reason to keep those dividers?) must have come off the flaps inside the IM. With the amount of goo on them, they may have been in there for a while and only the short of the 10 Amp Fuse #3 that failed inspection and pushed me to advance the carbon clean schedule allowed me to find it. I don’t know everything there is to know about engines, but chunks of plastic are not part of the fuel/air/fire normally going on in a combustion chamber.

So, I keep my cars forever, so do I:

1. Get a new IM?
2. Gut the flaps?

I am not a big fan of the kind of mod #2 indicates. Bigger intercoolers, heavier shocks, bigger brakes and a tune are all good mods, ripping things out of things makes me uneasy.

I have seen many posts about this delete, and the cost of a replacement ($2K) gives me pause, but I need more of a reason not to spend the money and put the car back in shape.

One thing I never mentioned, but the car has 200K miles on it and this is the first carbon clean for it (I drive it the way it was meant to be driven), so $2K to get me until I recycle it is probably not that bad of an investment.

I will be splitting the IM to take a peak and see what it looks like in there.

Ed

[justincredible]

Ed

Log road lots of stuff.

As you go back up the post chain. Your externial flap arm was missing the rivet that held the flap to the motor arm because your intake manifold is ready to be thrown away. The piece you see in your first picture of the cylinder ports is part of your intake manifold arm flap. The second plastic piece you see in the cylinder port is one of the holder tabs that is connected to the flap arm that was seperated from the motor arm.

In sort. The intake flaps are broken and it’s time for a new intake manifold. Money wise the IM can be a hard pill to swallow but in the end. It costs the car a lot of hp to have the intake not work. You will notice the power difference.

Check JHM they have the newest versions of the intake manifolds and they usually have the best price or close to the best price. At that point you can spend a few more dollars if you didn’t already and get your self the JHM intake spacers.

The spacers are a big win. All over from performance to health of the under hood components lastly helping keep the intake in better shape while keeping carbon at bay even longer.

[lliejk]

Yep, will be ordering an IM on Monday. Found oil in the spark plug wells, and it doesn’t look like it’s coming from the valve gasket.

I just got done (well last September) pulling a 997 engine. Not sure I am up for another at this point. I saw some posts about PCV pressure and maybe using some RTV in the wells. I am a “do it right” kind of guy, but I may wait until later to look at an engine pull.

Spacers are already ordered. Broke a fuel pressure sensor and believe it or not, the dip stick too. I have a couple of knock sensor connectors in bad shape (anyone know a supplier?) that I have to deal with as well.

Fuel rail is off (that’s when the fuel senor disintegrated) and I am in the process of cleaning the valley before pulling the fuel injectors.

I am disappointed about the oil in the spark plug wells.

Ed

[lliejk]

So here is where I stand right now:

I will continue with:

1. Valve gaskets
2. Oil canister gasket
3. Remove injectors, clean injectors in my US unit, replace O rings, reinstall
4. Actuator O rings
5. Coolant hose (and redo any other hoses I can reach)
6. Carbon clean
7. New plugs & coils

However, I spent until about 1 AM last night researching engine pulls for 4.2 & 5.2’s. I saw some unorthodox stuff (mostly) but even with the funky work processes, I was able to glean some information. What I really don’t get is why you can’t pull the engine without the front running gear? What I would do is what I did when I replaced the inner CV boots (now has both sides done - one at 70K and the other at about 150K) and remove the axle from the trans. Is there something I am missing?

There is enough out there (I was pleasantly surprised) and I have Bentley to help out with the Audi way of doing things.

The “want it right” part of me says, “buck up and do the right thing” and one way or the other, get the engine out of the car. The car has 200K on it, so do all the intelligent things to do (chain guide/tensioners, gaskets, etc) while it is out.

I just can’t ignore oil being in places it shouldn’t be. Anyway to tell in advance if I have a gasket or RTV? The 911 used RTV for the valve cover and I read somewhere there was a change to deal with oil in the plug wells. If anyone has any advice for a soon to be engine puller, let me know.

I’ll continue to post any new interesting stuff.

TIA,

Ed

[lliejk]

I spent most of today researching what I should pay attention to once the engine is out (I have to roll it out of the garage and back in backwards so I can roll the engine out and into the adjacent bay to work on when I drop it, or more accurately pull it forward). I am going to remove the drive shafts and LCA’s rather than pull the suspension since I am doing this on a QuickJack.

I have it in 4 categories:

Misc:

1. 07L-133-075-A Throttle Plenum Gasket
2. 079-103-121-BE O ring for Oil Filter case
3. N-909-597-01 Back O ring Oil Filter Housing

Should I pull the breather plate and redo it’s gasket? There is 0 oil coming from it now.

4. All O2 sensors (originals at 200K)

Valve Cover:

1. 07L103483J Valve Cover Gasket L & 07L103484F Valve Cover Gasket R
2. 07L103649A Cylinder 6-10 & 07L103650A Cyinder 1-5 cam carrier to head gasket
3. (4) WHT 002 789 Cam Actuator O Ring

Timing:

1. Tensioners - (079109217R Upper Chain Tensioner L, 079109218R Upper Chain Tensioner R, 079109507AF Lower tensioner, 079105139A Lower Tensioner o ring, 079109507M Tensioner - mid, 079 109 139 L Seal for Tensioner - mid
2. Guides - 079109507AM Lower guide L, 079109469AL Guide Upper Center
3. Cam Bolts - (4) N 91042802 Cam Shaft Stretch Bolts
4. (2) Cam Timing Cover Coolant O Rings: N 91065802 O Ring - Outer N, 90713203 O Ring - Inner Cam Timing Cover

Cooling:

1. Any hose that would be difficult to reach. I need to check sources on these since I am getting conflicting info between 7zap and Genuine Audi. It might be VIN dependent.

This is in addition to the carbon clean, IM replacement and T-stat wire repair already planned.

I think I caught everything, but when I get the engine down I can do a better survey. It looks like the headers have to come off to deal with the transmission and timing area, so I need to add whatever hardware will be replaced to my spreadsheet. I can post that when this is all over if it would be helpful to anyone.

Now to spend some time with Bentley and eBahn to see what fasteners need to be renewed (and to cross reference what I have gathered already). I need to track down the timing tools at some point as well.

Wish me luck!

Ed

[eng92]

The latter half of this thread

https://forums.audirevolution.net/t/07-s6-coolant-in-oil-complete-engine-teardown-with-pictures-re-stored/16384/8

has the labels with the p/ns listed next to each part I replaced.
I used one of the online versions of ETKA (oemepc.com) to get the p/ns I ordered at the dealer. There were a few items that were superceded to a more current number.

[lliejk]

Nice list and well done to (just my speed, pictures!)

Great job and thank you!

Ed

[justincredible]

The issue with the oil in the spark plug tubes is a hard call. Because that can happen over days months or years… Just depends on how bad the leak is. If you don’t know how often its happening. The bigger questions would move to. Were you getting missfires on that cylinder or cylinders.

how much oil was in the tubes.

If the oil wasn’t coming from the valve cover gaskets then its coming from the camshaft ladder. That is not only a motor out job its a chain off job. Quite the undertaking. Especially if you can avoid it.

The up side is you can remove the cats if you pull the motor.

[lliejk]

Lots of oil, past half way in a couple of coils, only 1 had just a little at the bottom. No signs of anything coming out of the higher ledge between the cover and the cradle. I have no idea how long, but there was just too much oil no matter how long it took. It’s been a while since I did plugs, so that’s on me (I’ve never owned a plug well leaker before). And yes there are multiple misfires, but before all this, I had put them down to carbon since it has never been cleaned before.

My 911 had several warts and after my kid came back with a blown cooling line somewhere deep inside, I decided to drop that engine and basically do the same thing that I want to do here. At least there are no metal cooling fittings that pop out of their places on the S6. I was impressed with how efficient that drop was (especially compared to the work I did). I did pin the cams which required removing them, and I was lucky my P-Car guy lent me the $4K timing tool (there are NO timing marks on that engine).

WIth 200K on the clock I take as an opportunity to assure another 200K (I gave up my CQ with 335K on it) by replacing all that plastic stuff back there, as well as every damn O ring and rubber hose I can’t get to with the engine in the car. Like with the 997, once I am done I can worry about other things, like speeding tickets.

I have already turned the car around on the Quickjack and will be getting the SUV adapters in place. That should give me at least 24" clearance from the lowest point. Using the HF 1000LB platform jack, with some wood block shims, I plan on lowering it a bit, then dragging it forward out from under the car.

OIl is out (no sign of milkshake thankfully) and I have begun disconnecting the rest of the connections. I did some more research and read Eng92’s thread (which was awesome). I didn’t count on a few things, like pulling the exhaust at the headers to let me deal with the timing stuff once the drive train is out of the car.

And I still have to make a decision about that breather cover and gasket. I will probably do it since it is sitting right there, other than that I am finishing off my list tonight so I can spend my life’s savings with Audi, FCP Euro, RM European, Pelican and any other parts guys I have to. At least I am not paying anyone to drop the thing.

Oh, when you say cat delete, what about emissions here? Won’t I fail? How about high flow cats instead, are there such creatures for the V10?

Back to work.

Ed