Ed,
A few helpful tips that can help many of us work along with you. Always post the full vag com freeze frame data. All of that can be really helpful in support of what your doing.
Also in vag com you can do output tests. These can help in working through things like this and might be a good road to help.
Lastly for helping all of us and others. When and if you get a wire digram feel free to post it. So others might be able to help work along with you in that aspect.
Good advice. Here are the relevant VCDS faults:
Address 01: Engine (BXA) Labels: Redir Fail!
Part No SW: 4F1 910 562 A HW: 4F1 907 552 B
Component: 5.2L V10/4V FSI ª0010
Revision: 5HH02— Serial number:
Coding: 01050009190F0160
Shop #: WSC 44635 001 1048576
VCID: 23452D04E207519E3F-8076
6 Faults Found:
008328 - Bank 1 Camshaft A (Intake) Position Actuator
P2088 - 002 - Short to Ground
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01100010
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 255
Mileage: 317993 km
Time Indication: 0
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 1269 /min
Load: 58.4 %
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Temperature: 15.0°C
Temperature: 21.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
Voltage: 9.906 V
008336 - Bank 1 Camshaft B (Exhaust) Position Actuator
P2090 - 002 - Short to Ground
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01100010
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 255
Mileage: 317993 km
Time Indication: 0
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 1269 /min
Load: 58.4 %
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Temperature: 15.0°C
Temperature: 21.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
Voltage: 9.906 V
008201 - Intake Manifold Flap; Bank 1
P2009 - 002 - Short to Ground
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01100010
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 255
Mileage: 317993 km
Time Indication: 0
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 1269 /min
Load: 58.4 %
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Temperature: 15.0°C
Temperature: 21.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
Voltage: 9.906 V
001432 - Thermostat for Mapped Engine Cooling (F265)
P0598 - 002 - Short to Plus
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01100010
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 255
Mileage: 317993 km
Time Indication: 0
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 1269 /min
Load: 58.4 %
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Temperature: 15.0°C
Temperature: 21.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
Voltage: 10.795 V
006438 - Relay for Aux Coolant Pump (J496)
P1926 - 002 - Short to Ground
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01100010
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 255
Mileage: 317993 km
Time Indication: 0
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 1269 /min
Load: 58.4 %
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Temperature: 15.0°C
Temperature: 21.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
Voltage: 10.795 V
006435 - Please Check DTC Memory of ECU Number 2
P1923 - 008 -
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01101000
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 255
Mileage: 317993 km
Time Indication: 0
Date: 2020.04.04
Time: 19:11:16
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 1499 /min
Load: 31.0 %
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Temperature: 15.0°C
Temperature: 20.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
Voltage: 11.430 V
and for Engine 2:
Address 11: Engine II Labels: Redir Fail!
Part No SW: 4F1 910 562 A HW: 4F1 907 552 B
Component: 5.2L V10/4V FSI ª0010
Revision: 5HH02— Serial number:
Coding: 01050009190F0160
Shop #: WSC 44635 001 1048576
VCID: 23452D04E207519E3F-8076
3 Faults Found:
008338 - Bank 2 Camshaft A (Intake) Position Actuator
P2092 - 002 - Short to Ground
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01100010
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 255
Mileage: 317993 km
Time Indication: 0
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 1911 /min
Load: 45.5 %
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Temperature: 15.0°C
Temperature: 21.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
Voltage: 10.414 V
008340 - Bank 2 Camshaft B (Exhaust) Position Actuator
P2094 - 002 - Short to Ground
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01100010
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 255
Mileage: 317993 km
Time Indication: 0
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 1911 /min
Load: 45.5 %
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Temperature: 15.0°C
Temperature: 21.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
Voltage: 10.414 V
005491 - Left Engine Mount Solenoid Valve (N144)
P1573 - 004 - Open Circuit
Freeze Frame:
Fault Status: 01100100
Fault Priority: 2
Fault Frequency: 1
Reset counter: 255
Mileage: 317993 km
Time Indication: 0
Freeze Frame:
RPM: 1911 /min
Load: 45.5 %
Speed: 0.0 km/h
Temperature: 15.0°C
Temperature: 21.0°C
Absolute Pres.: 990.0 mbar
Voltage: 10.668 V
Wiring Diagrams:
Ed
Ok Ed.
See the data appears to maybe being helpful. The code shows the car is running when the code pops up. Generally if its fully electronic you can see these things at key on without the car running. Now this isn’t always the case but in a lot of cases it’s the case.
It’s not very likely that both banks would go bad at the same time so I would say there is something most likely electronic going on. But you can also try to log into the module and then log the camshaft position. Just as another step.
Thanks. You are correct. If I clear and then only turn the key, no CEL. As soon as I run it, CEL. The car won’t be in for about a week, but I will update what I find then.
Thanks again,
Ed
Vehicle is in the garage finally. A4 had some other minor things the kid wanted resolved/installed (like a hardwire dash cam), but the S6 is finally in.
I started my research and I am torn. For the T-Stat cooling I saw a frayed wire down to it’s last strands. Disconnecting it returns an Open Circuit now, but that wire will definitely need some attention.
I began to compile information about the actuators and testing, and I probably will use the VCDS to do that, but should I just start dealing with the carbon clean and all it entails and continue to look at these errors, or should I resolve the errors first? My gut tells me to stick with diagnosis first before carbon clean.
I am going to continue to read up before I do anything.
Ed
#1 - Thermostat for Mapped Engine Cooling (F265) P0598 - 002 - Short to Plus
Frayed wire, will have to patch in new piece
#2 - Intake Manifold Flap; Bank 1 P2009 - 002 - Short to Ground
The circlip holding the operating rod to the rotating piece was not in place and the rod was not connected. The rotating piece that goes in the engine can slide outward without much force (Is this normal?).
My next step for troubleshooting is to disconnect the connectors at the cam actuators, run the test on VCDS and see if I get voltage at the connections. I am a novice with VCDS’s higher functions like measuring blocks and tests, but I have been reading as much as I can, although I am still fuzzy on what measuring blocks show the cam information specifically. The link on VAG-COM shows numbers like 090 through - 098 but either nothing displays at all or I am unsure of what it is trying to tell me. I will keep looking.
Ed
When my HPFP went I remembered that two things happened:
So after removing cover, wipers and cowl, Fuse 3 was fried. Replaced, cleared codes, ran engine, read codes and mostly expected ones showed up. However when I ran the output tests I never heard anything clicking for the cam actuator tests. We already know the T-sat wire was frayed, so could that have been the only thing that fired the fuse or are the actuators bad in a way that would cause the fuse to fry?
I also now have:
Coolant Circulation Pump (V50) 001 - Upper Limit Exceeded - Intermittent
But the limited info out there says just to replace it. Upper Limit Exceeded posts (for other devices) talk about resistance, so I wonder if that is frying the fuse? The other (odd) advice I saw was that if no CEL was being thrown, don’t worry about it. I will probably order a aux pump and do it with the carbon clean.
My electronics knowledge is my weakest point, but I try and learn more each time. I will try and monitor whatever I should be looking for in the 2 wire connector to the cam actuators (I still don’t know what I am looking for exactly on each wire).
I also see what I think is PS fluid coming down the front of the engine down to the pan. I need to look more closely but I hate PS fluid. Anyway, I think I am good for now. If I run into anything interesting or get any more information I will post again.
Thanks,
Ed
I was wrong about the PS Fluid, it was oil. I had decided early on I would be removing the lock carrier and radiator since I had a coolant leak (looks like a hose on the passenger side near the Aux pump). After getting everything out of the way I could tell it was oil coming from the valley:
I figured I would find it once the IM was off. The IM removal was fairly straightforward, though I left one fuel line (large on on the left) and the two rear engine hoists on. I have no idea how they get them off (Maybe a crows foot for the fuel line and some low profile triple square tool for the hoist brackets). While doing this I also noticed the very beginning of valve gasket failure on the driver side and oil making it’s way down the passenger side, so valve gaskets will be part of this work.
While I was surprised to see some nut shells from an uninvited guest, what really shocked me was what was in the #1 and #6 intake paths:
#1 (if the first cylinder on the left is #1):
#6 (1st cylinder Driver side):
And the source of the leak (common among some of the comments on some posts about carbon cleaning):
My guess is those two plastic parts that got wedged in the upper chamber areas (maybe a good reason to keep those dividers?) must have come off the flaps inside the IM. With the amount of goo on them, they may have been in there for a while and only the short of the 10 Amp Fuse #3 that failed inspection and pushed me to advance the carbon clean schedule allowed me to find it. I don’t know everything there is to know about engines, but chunks of plastic are not part of the fuel/air/fire normally going on in a combustion chamber.
So, I keep my cars forever, so do I:
I am not a big fan of the kind of mod #2 indicates. Bigger intercoolers, heavier shocks, bigger brakes and a tune are all good mods, ripping things out of things makes me uneasy.
I have seen many posts about this delete, and the cost of a replacement ($2K) gives me pause, but I need more of a reason not to spend the money and put the car back in shape.
One thing I never mentioned, but the car has 200K miles on it and this is the first carbon clean for it (I drive it the way it was meant to be driven), so $2K to get me until I recycle it is probably not that bad of an investment.
I will be splitting the IM to take a peak and see what it looks like in there.
Ed
Ed
Log road lots of stuff.
As you go back up the post chain. Your externial flap arm was missing the rivet that held the flap to the motor arm because your intake manifold is ready to be thrown away. The piece you see in your first picture of the cylinder ports is part of your intake manifold arm flap. The second plastic piece you see in the cylinder port is one of the holder tabs that is connected to the flap arm that was seperated from the motor arm.
In sort. The intake flaps are broken and it’s time for a new intake manifold. Money wise the IM can be a hard pill to swallow but in the end. It costs the car a lot of hp to have the intake not work. You will notice the power difference.
Check JHM they have the newest versions of the intake manifolds and they usually have the best price or close to the best price. At that point you can spend a few more dollars if you didn’t already and get your self the JHM intake spacers.
The spacers are a big win. All over from performance to health of the under hood components lastly helping keep the intake in better shape while keeping carbon at bay even longer.
Yep, will be ordering an IM on Monday. Found oil in the spark plug wells, and it doesn’t look like it’s coming from the valve gasket.
I just got done (well last September) pulling a 997 engine. Not sure I am up for another at this point. I saw some posts about PCV pressure and maybe using some RTV in the wells. I am a “do it right” kind of guy, but I may wait until later to look at an engine pull.
Spacers are already ordered. Broke a fuel pressure sensor and believe it or not, the dip stick too. I have a couple of knock sensor connectors in bad shape (anyone know a supplier?) that I have to deal with as well.
Fuel rail is off (that’s when the fuel senor disintegrated) and I am in the process of cleaning the valley before pulling the fuel injectors.
I am disappointed about the oil in the spark plug wells.
Ed
So here is where I stand right now:
I will continue with:
However, I spent until about 1 AM last night researching engine pulls for 4.2 & 5.2’s. I saw some unorthodox stuff (mostly) but even with the funky work processes, I was able to glean some information. What I really don’t get is why you can’t pull the engine without the front running gear? What I would do is what I did when I replaced the inner CV boots (now has both sides done - one at 70K and the other at about 150K) and remove the axle from the trans. Is there something I am missing?
There is enough out there (I was pleasantly surprised) and I have Bentley to help out with the Audi way of doing things.
The “want it right” part of me says, “buck up and do the right thing” and one way or the other, get the engine out of the car. The car has 200K on it, so do all the intelligent things to do (chain guide/tensioners, gaskets, etc) while it is out.
I just can’t ignore oil being in places it shouldn’t be. Anyway to tell in advance if I have a gasket or RTV? The 911 used RTV for the valve cover and I read somewhere there was a change to deal with oil in the plug wells. If anyone has any advice for a soon to be engine puller, let me know.
I’ll continue to post any new interesting stuff.
TIA,
Ed
I spent most of today researching what I should pay attention to once the engine is out (I have to roll it out of the garage and back in backwards so I can roll the engine out and into the adjacent bay to work on when I drop it, or more accurately pull it forward). I am going to remove the drive shafts and LCA’s rather than pull the suspension since I am doing this on a QuickJack.
I have it in 4 categories:
Misc:
Should I pull the breather plate and redo it’s gasket? There is 0 oil coming from it now.
Valve Cover:
Timing:
Cooling:
This is in addition to the carbon clean, IM replacement and T-stat wire repair already planned.
I think I caught everything, but when I get the engine down I can do a better survey. It looks like the headers have to come off to deal with the transmission and timing area, so I need to add whatever hardware will be replaced to my spreadsheet. I can post that when this is all over if it would be helpful to anyone.
Now to spend some time with Bentley and eBahn to see what fasteners need to be renewed (and to cross reference what I have gathered already). I need to track down the timing tools at some point as well.
Wish me luck!
Ed
The latter half of this thread
has the labels with the p/ns listed next to each part I replaced.
I used one of the online versions of ETKA (oemepc.com) to get the p/ns I ordered at the dealer. There were a few items that were superceded to a more current number.
Nice list and well done to (just my speed, pictures!)
Great job and thank you!
Ed
The issue with the oil in the spark plug tubes is a hard call. Because that can happen over days months or years… Just depends on how bad the leak is. If you don’t know how often its happening. The bigger questions would move to. Were you getting missfires on that cylinder or cylinders.
how much oil was in the tubes.
If the oil wasn’t coming from the valve cover gaskets then its coming from the camshaft ladder. That is not only a motor out job its a chain off job. Quite the undertaking. Especially if you can avoid it.
The up side is you can remove the cats if you pull the motor.
Lots of oil, past half way in a couple of coils, only 1 had just a little at the bottom. No signs of anything coming out of the higher ledge between the cover and the cradle. I have no idea how long, but there was just too much oil no matter how long it took. It’s been a while since I did plugs, so that’s on me (I’ve never owned a plug well leaker before). And yes there are multiple misfires, but before all this, I had put them down to carbon since it has never been cleaned before.
My 911 had several warts and after my kid came back with a blown cooling line somewhere deep inside, I decided to drop that engine and basically do the same thing that I want to do here. At least there are no metal cooling fittings that pop out of their places on the S6. I was impressed with how efficient that drop was (especially compared to the work I did). I did pin the cams which required removing them, and I was lucky my P-Car guy lent me the $4K timing tool (there are NO timing marks on that engine).
WIth 200K on the clock I take as an opportunity to assure another 200K (I gave up my CQ with 335K on it) by replacing all that plastic stuff back there, as well as every damn O ring and rubber hose I can’t get to with the engine in the car. Like with the 997, once I am done I can worry about other things, like speeding tickets.
I have already turned the car around on the Quickjack and will be getting the SUV adapters in place. That should give me at least 24" clearance from the lowest point. Using the HF 1000LB platform jack, with some wood block shims, I plan on lowering it a bit, then dragging it forward out from under the car.
OIl is out (no sign of milkshake thankfully) and I have begun disconnecting the rest of the connections. I did some more research and read Eng92’s thread (which was awesome). I didn’t count on a few things, like pulling the exhaust at the headers to let me deal with the timing stuff once the drive train is out of the car.
And I still have to make a decision about that breather cover and gasket. I will probably do it since it is sitting right there, other than that I am finishing off my list tonight so I can spend my life’s savings with Audi, FCP Euro, RM European, Pelican and any other parts guys I have to. At least I am not paying anyone to drop the thing.
Oh, when you say cat delete, what about emissions here? Won’t I fail? How about high flow cats instead, are there such creatures for the V10?
Back to work.
Ed
Got the car up on the SUV adapters and have about 30" to the bottom of the forward frame rails. Since I plan on leaving the suspension in the car, I have to disconnect the axle/front suspension components, including the sway bar and I will be pretty close to pulling the engine.
Car up on the Quickjack with the SUV adapters:
Does anyone have any advice on how to support the engine on my platform lift so I can remove the transmission once it is out? I am sure I can figure it out, but if there are any BTDT’s that would be great.
I sspent the last few days getting the parts list together and checking prices and availability. Some parts have been ordered already and I am going over my Audi dealer quote for the rest. I still need to figure out what coolant lines I need to get, but I will do that in a second round of ordering once the engine is out and I can see what I need to do. I have used Eng92’s excellent post to help ID the parts involved.
I have to do a little garage reorganization so I can wheel the assembly out of one bay and into the other for the work, and today is a good weather day for that.
Ed
Works like a charm.
https://www.harborfreight.com/1000-lbs-capacity-hydraulic-table-cart-60438.html
You might need to modify depending on your space but it can hold 1000lbs easy. That covers both your motor and transmission.
What lift is that your currently using.
Quickjack:
That’s from ECS, but I think even COSTCO has them (they come in 3500, 5000 and 7000 LB units.
I used the HF platform to drop my 997 engine. I already flipped the handle so it drops down away from the platform so I can slide it under to get the platform where I need it. Now I just have to figure out where to place blocks so I can get the transmission off once it’s out.
Moving right along. PS fluid and cooler detached, ground strap pulled, most coolant hoses detached (though the Bentley seems to differ on some items) and I am just about to pull the ECU’s and lay them on the engine:
I’ve got my proposal from Audi and it looks like the total bill will be about $5500 in parts and supplies which includes a $2000 IM.
I’ve been photo documenting everything and like other work I have done, I have a few tables set up and have been bagging and tagging everything. Just a ton of stuff, but the 911 looked more complicated than a human circulatory and nervous system. At the same time that engine seemed much better suited for pulling than this one, probably because almost everything requires a drop there.
997 engine fresh out:
With all the crap off ready for work to be done:
Anyway, back to work!
Ed
So I am ready to head under the car and start disconnecting there. I had posted some stuff in my UrS forum and one of the guys who has a lot of experience replied that he had fixed his flaps on his 4.2 (jury rigged but it worked). With thoughts of possibly saving $2K, I decided to dissect the IM and I was quickly disappointed.
First there was a ton of oil inside (is that normal) - I had replaced the separator about a year ago, maybe it was in there from the bad unit?:
I removed the runners, but even before I could see a missing flap and a loose flap where it shouldn’t be:
The cyl 10 flap was back down on cyl 6, the retainer was in cyl 6 and the connecting piece was in cyl 1. The front operating lever was completely disconnected and the other bank of flaps was no longer attached to the end of the IM.
Also every single flap was disconnected from the other (I assume the two separated pieces in the center should be one solid piece and not rotate separately from each other):
Finally a couple of flaps had their edges worn off:
So even if I could have pulled something off reagarding securing the flap guides to the IM, since they are no longer connected to each other it wouldn’t have made a difference.
Also, how the hell was this engine even running with plastic pieces in the throat of the chamber and all that oil and junk from whatever stuck to the flaps and walls of the IM?
Calling it a night, will be back at it tomorrow.
Ed
