Primetime
I picked up on what your laying down, I’m so used to all the bashing on forums and try not to get personal.
It’s so strange to have good answers but no one will listen… I’m sure it’s a major part of the problem…
Haha. I thought the same thing when I read the other thread. Good read, but damn I must be getting old and my brain slowing down… 10 years ago that would have all made a lot more sense.
I debated this with several people on the other site a few days ago, but my take on the kit is… Just based off the way it’s tuned tells me they have been battling temp issues all along. It’s very possible there is some issue with richi’s car too, and that would just exacerbate the problems. Regardless, I think it’s obvious more needs to be done at this point, so it doesn’t shock me they don’t want more out there (even though it would make sense to get a few into the hands of people that could actually help them).
When you look at how the kit performed, the logs/info posted, it really reeks of something that probably shouldn’t have been released. Looking at the situation, it seems like Magnusson was desperate to get something out to recoup some of what they had invested in the project (and probably had already committed to Eaton). It’s pretty telling that it took so long to get to this point, and then to have these results. Probably even more telling that APR bailed on it at some point as they had the most data on how it performed.
With that said, I think it is partially salvageable, but probably not in a way that will make sense for a lot of people… The end costs, amount of work required and end results probably won’t be for everyone, and I have a feeling that is what they were trying to avoid. They wanted to do it for as cheap as possible (hence the weak attempt at adding a small amount of coolant as their cooling solution), and that just doesn’t jive with what the kit really needs to work right.
I’ll stick by what I’ve said. I think the kit is probably capable of something like 60-70 hp over an average stage 2 setup (not necessarily Auditude’s car) with better/proper functioning cooling, and more work on a tune for cars that have that. That means a larger heat exchanger, upgraded pump, and more coolant capacity at a minimum. Ideally, a W/M kit would go a long way to solving some of the most serious issues. With some combination of that, race gas, and possibly a smaller pulley, I could see it maybe going up to 100-125 hp over stage 2. I think it tops out there in the best case scenario.
So, that means really, at the end of the day, you’re probably looking at something like $14k for a proper functioning kit once you get into the cooling mods, possibly W/M, and then whatever APR is going to do in terms of tuning with a smaller pulley. That’s a lot to swallow for the average enthusiast. It would really be limited to those that only care about having the fastest, best, or whatever. The costs will be high, and there will be some other sacrifices whether that’s running W/M or race gas.
you mean last friday? he was posting about how it took 4 minutes before anything came out etc. Sounds like it was already done no?
Bernank,
I actually really like the post and I’m happy you shared the idea. I was just worried when you started predicting the results based on feel, that’s when things often turn sour. Even my numbers will easily be refuted by actual results.
Hope you stick around and start trying this stuff out, and share the results.
Been too busy at work, I’ll update with how you calculate the air temp using the compressor efficiency map.
J
Nah nothing yet, RSW has to do the work as they are a magnusun dealer. i was at my shop last friday(eurotech) and we just tried to bleed the system a bit more, the car feels a bit better but still hits a wall at 6000 rpm. i was supposed to go in tomorrow but the bleeders wont be in until monday >:(
I just talked to Dion at DAW, he thinks I might be right. I begged him to get in touch with magnuson/APR. then I mentioned Richi and he said he knows him well. I asked Dion to reach out to Richi and fix that car!
Sorry if a crossed any lines, when I get involved in a problem, I don’t let it go until it’s fixed…
id really want it for my guys at eurotech to take a look but that will cause issues being that they are not an authorized magnusun dealer. they would fix all the issues much quicker, they would pick the car up for me since i live right near by. with RSW i have to coordinate a lot more just to get the car there…
Rich- when it’s all fixed just send over a text.
Update;
I was wrong on the water level, but my over all principal is still right. The water level cold sits below the highest points. But the top seam of the expansion tank is just a slight bit lower than the highest point, but the top “air trap” is the highest point. That little cut out, under the cap, is a bleeder… I think…
http://audirevolution.net/addons/albums/images/403543908.jpg
http://audirevolution.net/addons/albums/images/313836968.jpg
Note all that baffling.
If I stick my finger in the tank and feel towards the front of the car, their is a wall separating the tanks. Pretty complicated but I think there is a common hole that runs along the bottom and fills towards the top and traps air…
The stage 3 expansion tank is a non baffled normal design (I think) so the air level and normal coolant expansion, due the common tank, isn’t exactly the same because the supercharger loop won’t heat up to 200 degrees and expand as much as the OEM expansion tank. That OEM tank is way over engineered (imho) but there’s probably something engineered there that’s over my head. here’s a pic showing the tank higher than the rest of the highest points.
http://audirevolution.net/addons/albums/images/924785871.jpg
http://audirevolution.net/addons/albums/images/625265340.jpg
This.
Bernank, in a divorced system like Richis with a separate intercooler loop, once the system is bled, such as the above method, no air can get back in there, unless he rolls the car over or if there is a leak on the suction side of the pump, or the coolant degrades over time and produces gas.
The biggest issue is running the pump before the system is really full and causing foaming - that will make the bubbles really hard to remove. I still recommend putting a tee on the lowest part of the system, at the hose at the bottom of the front heat exchanger, then filling it from there using a hose and a funnel held high like the above. Slap them if they try to start the car before really bleeding the system, have them put clear hoses on the bleeder ports draining to a clean container until the really see no bubbles.
Somewhere right here on the lowest hose - have them put the fill tee here:
https://www.goapr.com/includes/img/products/cps_b8_30tfsi_tank_installed.jpg
Nah nothing yet, RSW has to do the work as they are a magnusun dealer. i was at my shop last friday(eurotech) and we just tried to bleed the system a bit more, the car feels a bit better but still hits a wall at 6000 rpm. i was supposed to go in tomorrow but the bleeders wont be in until monday >:(
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Richi can you disclose if one cylinder bank is getting hotter IAT than the other?
I’ve been staring at the stock set up and pics of stage 3 and I’ve come up with multiple scenarios to discuss. These discussions open up my mind to learn more, and be better at my job.
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If the expansion tank cap is below the highest point, and you opened it, all the coolant above the cap to the bleed screw would gush out. If no coolant comes out then it’s not filled to the top
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If there is air trapped at the highest point (bleed screw), then it becomes a resistive path and the flow would probably just go through the drivers side IC.
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It looks like the pipe is larger on the stage 3 IC, which would cause a pressure drop. The OEM system sucks coolant out from a spot in between the intercoolers, stage 3 pulls from the drivers side. So if the pump is inadequate (which I think it is when increasing pipe size, as proven by AMS, not sure it’s apples to apples comparison but it’s relevant) there would be less suction for the passengers side because the drivers side gets first dibs. I really think they totally screwed up the plumbing of the parallel pipes connecting left and right intercoolers. Look at the pics the drivers side has dibs on pressure and pipe size! So the drivers side has much larger pipe so the path of least resistance is through the drivers side… I’ll almost guarantee the drivers side bank is showing lower IAT.
http://audirevolution.net/addons/albums/images/853453368.jpg
Richi, am I wrong about IAT?
How would u close the cap, after removing the funnel with out loosing everything above the cap?
The coolant return is on the opposite side, and since supply flow = return flow, the pressure drop balances out between the banks.
For the other question, since no air can get in the highest point so long as the bleeder screws are closed, if you open the reservoir cap, the system is under a slight hydraulic vacuum at the high point - nothing flows out.
Hmmm, I’ve certainly lost some confidence in my thought , but it still seems much more difficult and unnecessary to have the fill below the highest point. Im gonna have to do some testing , but if (big if) it was filled properly, I believe your right, and it would be air locked. Having it lower makes filling much more complicated leaving a lot of room for error on the techs part. If you held the tank higher, filled it, bled and rebolted it down lower, then ur right. If air can’t displace the water then it’s locked… Every time you bled/filled it, you would have to unbolt the tank and bring it up, or find someway to remove the coolant that’s above the cap in the funnel. Still seems to leave a ton of room for error…
My 2nd mistake is that tank is not an expansion tank, it’s a reservoir… but the air left over on the top would act like an expansion tank…
My third mistake was that at time of posting, late last night, I thought the supply and return both came from the drivers side IC…
I’m typing out my thought process in real time. It allows you to pick apart my thought process and properly explain why I’m wrong. I’m not pretending to be the smartest guy in the room, but I aspire to be among them. So I like discussing theory, when I’m wrong, I’ll admit it, and that’s when I learn the most.
Now that I understand the theory ( I think ) I can intelligently plan on how to fill it. If the reservoir was mounted high, u wouldn’t need an extension funnel, vacuum pump, or a highly trained group of engineers, just gravity and a slow pour. In all other supercharged motors the IC sits low making that location behind the rad support acceptable.
The divorced loop doesn’t have an auto bleeder, the OEM design does. So you don’t want any air in that loop like already mentioned because it will be a pain to remove. I think they would be wise to convert to an expansion tank like OEM, it will auto bleed. But because they didn’t it’s a sealed loop like an old radiator with a cap. So if u try to bleed from that bleed spot and have the reservoir open, your gonna suck air in! I bet that’s what’s happening, they think they air bleeding, but in reality it’s air sucking in, and if the system was filled right, when u opened the bleeder with the cap off, air will pull in, coolant will pour out. I think the techs are as confused as I was, treating the reservoir like an expansion tank. If you mounted that tiny reservoir at the highest point it would be easy as hell to fill and bleed from empty and be easy to bleed after driving a while. Air would get trapped in the reservoir and you could visually see if you had a large air pocket. I still think that location is causing tech error.
I really want to know why the OEM pump fails when used with AMS boost cooler. I think the free-er flowing piping raised the amperage above the design load, causing it to shut down on thermal overload. The stage 3 IC seems to be larger piping on supply/return ports, maybe it’s related to what AMS found.
Why don’t you guys talk about this in the other thread you started?
You’re really just making this thread a mess and IMHO if you actually solve a problem, the gains will not be that significant.
At this point, why do you have to take the car to a magnuson dealer? Just go to the shop you trust and have them sort through the problems IMO. Or the mag dealer is covering the labor/parts to sort this out? If it is just a coolant issue, I’d just foot the bill and make sure it’s done right vs dealing with huge hassles and incompetence. I doubt your guys break anything.
I agree, move it over…but don’t blame me. His posts are getting a little odd at this point.
hear hear
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I agree, move it over…but don’t blame me. His posts are getting a little odd at this point.
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Ouch, understood.