APR supercharger doesn't pass readiness, do the others?

B6/7 S4/RS4
#61

I’m not going to defend RX-Heven. He does know California smog law.

Someone wrote about an S5 getting smogged with a TVS3120 kit, and heven chimed in. Heven was correct, it may pass tail pipe emission, but it would fail visual-period. The 65vettec6 forum member said that kind of problem goes away with bribing. But the State of Californoa doesn’t always allow a vehicle to get smogged by any smog tech, sometimes the vehicle goes to a more stringent shop, called a gold shield station. Gold Shield stations are test only, and hence they are less likely to take a bribe since it is their only source on income to smog vehicles. Newer vehicles are usually sent to gold shield stations for their first smog check. This is important because if someone in California has a non smog legal part on their vehicle and it’s driven on a public road, then there is risk, like getting pulled over for a driving infraction, and if the police officer has probable cause, they can ask for a driver to pop open the hood. Also, a california resident would most likely either remove the modification to sell the car, or sell it to to a buyer in another state. California also has random portable smog inspections: on the south end of Redwood blvd in Novato, CA the state has a random inspection, stopping EVERY car in one direction. This is a city of 50,0000 people. crazy!!!

Saki, you wrote, “who cares about California?” you are correct, it’s not a California issue for this particular problem with this customer’s car. However, if a tuner were to certify their product with the state of california, it would be easier to make it legal in less strict markets/locations. It would also have to pass the readiness test and this poor fella wouldn’t have this issue.

And did you guys see flying tomato’s screen shot??? his car failed emission readiness test as well, which validates the OP’s problem.

The response from Arin about the TUV certification would infer that it’s thorough test and that it should be ok everywhere. Truth is, it seems to just test tail pipe emissions and not look much deeper than that.

California? because 14 other states now use california emission standards and laws, New York now using california LEV standards and now california’s catalytic converter requirements.

It just means that California is more strict about about this stuff and they will allow for sale of merchandise for vehicles, just as long as it passes legitimate certification tests.

#62

I would agree that newer OBD II vehicles are cleaner than older vehicles and since there are statistically newer vehicles in operation/VIO, that is correct. However, I do sell California legal catalytic converters about $45k annually to just one installer in Novato,CA. Sometimes the newer vehicles do need repairs and sometimes these vehicles melt the substrate inside the catalytic converters from overly rich running engines.

#63

Did he get his responses in writing? Hopefully he has an email trail.

#64

Your putting words in my mouth or misunderstanding what I said. RX made the comment about modified car owners having to bribe techs doing inspections making it sound like a typical occurrence. I found that comical, maybe in Cali it happens but if these techs were making $50-100 off of every modified car that roles through I think there would be a hell of a lot more people looking for the job. Countvohn even commented on this tread that JHM is able to pass. That guy is stuck on his California laws which don’t apply to the OP. The OP is not having a problem passing fucking visual inspection.

#65

Sounds like APR’s nuts are in a vice… can’t deny or admit fault.
Time to man up to stay in business imho. Sure it’s going to cost but they’ll keep their customer base with honesty. And that’s if they can fix the problem…

#66

Reminds of GM’s woes… keeping shit a secret sure doesn’t work out too well in the long run. But at least GM has the gov’t to bail them out…

#67

That’s interesting. Why is FT’s car still on the road? The OP’s car has been sidelined for like a year.

#68

problem is if they give him a refund, they have to potentially give out dozens of redunds.

You don’t think there are other RS4 owners who bought an APR 1320 kit in 2011 thinking that was the end all be all of RS4 superchargers…? Only to find out a year later that there are 4 other options, all of which OBLITERATE the 1320 kit?

So now APR has guys who want out of the 1320 so they can get into a JHM Stage 2…and what are they going to do?

That’s why I said above they needed to quietly refund this guy’s kit.

From where I sit, according to Danny, APR misrepresented the product…APR’s dealer misrepresented the product…and APR’s technical staff misrepresented the product. So you’re bang on…their nuts are in a vice lol. How they get out of it, nobody knows.

p.s. sell Karsty your car if you want to get a TTRS. He’s looking for one. He used to own one and wants another. He’s a member here, so you can PM him.

#69

OK, right after this message.

Anyone who is contemplating modifying their car and worried about passing emissions testing. The reason is that most, if not all companies selling performance parts that are advertised emissions compliant will clearly and proudly state that fact. If it passes in CA, it will in all likelihood pass in all other 50 states. It is simply too cumbersome for a small company to check and certify their parts as emissions compliant in all other states so they may only go with CA and one or two others with different systems checks and the rest will follow. Why would they bother checking and certifying compliance on a state-by-state basis? Ridiculous to think they would. APR is not GM, nor is JHM for that matter.

On the other hand, if deciding to modify a part will inhibit the parts/kits ability to make the power they are looking for and what they believe will help sell the kits comes at the expense of emissions compliance in some states, so be it. This is where almost almost all aftermarket producers fall into, including APR. It is not their job to know your smog laws unless they specifically state so, in writing.

Apparently he did not and I do not know what is so hard to understand about this, regardless of what he was told. If he had done his due diligence, he would not find himself in this situation. The rest of your points are irrelevant after this fact.

Sorry if I take a weekend off from worrying about what goes on in this, or any forum.

Regarding MDUBZ, all I did was respond to a reference of me in a thread about what my intentions are. I corrected that and he dug up a two year old quote about what my intentions were. From there, admittedly it did get kind of silly with the back and forth. We’ve kissed and made up since :-*

The personal attacks are unnecessary and besides, of the few hundred forum members I have met over the years in person all while under the same username and across multiple forums, including one poster in this thread, may tend to disagree with you. I will speak my mind, loudly at times, in person and in your face, whether you like it or not. I have no problems with it as anyone who has ever met me can attest.

Also, FYI , I am not a D-Bag, I’m just an asshole and though I may have a ton of patience for many things now, I still have none for stupidity. Personal attacks on forums are stupid, as are many of the statements I quoted in the other thread.

True dat.

I understood your sarcasm in the that post, but what I found to be comical was your lack of knowledge on the subject. At least now you are informed. For future reference, it usually helps when your statements are based on fact and/or actual experience and not assumptions. You see, there I am being an asshole. Big deal.

Bribing techs is not a regular occurrence and the few tech’s who do it are very hesitant or very choosy with who they do it with. Their livelihood is on the line. Also, it costs WAY more than $50-$100 to go this route, more like $400-$1000+. For many owners, it is simply easier and/or cheaper to remove the suspect parts and go back to stock.

[quote=“65vetteC6,post:64,topic:5614”]
Herein lies part of the problem. I am not doubting CV’s comment about JHM passing emissions somewhere but this is a blanket statement and is totally dependent upon what state the test was done in. One shoe does not fit every foot.

On another note, I did just pick up my built motor stage 2 SC’d Avant from JHM end of last week. Loads of fun and it will only to get better as the tune is refined.

#70

he asked the Apr dealer
he asked Apr sales support
he asked Apr technical support

They all said it would pass readiness.

If even they didn’t know it wouldn’t…how was the customer supposed to know? And how is the customer NOT doing his due diligence?

Basically that giant post is you saying you are unrealistic and argumentative, and don’t want to admit you’re wrong. I can respect that lol. No point discussing it.

#71

From what I read, they said it should pass. “Should” does not imply will. Do not assume anything. Do your friggin research. I have dealt with and deal with contractors all the time over the years who promise the world and are either incapable of delivering or straight up lying. In either case, I learned my lesson a long time ago.

Wrong?? Wrong about what? I have no problem admitting when I am wrong.
As far as being argumentative, that is real cute, especially coming from someone who does almost nothing but start and argue pointless threads that are filled with point-by-point argumentative lists about how right he is. I made a long post addressing quotes in posts that I was, at least in part, the subject of.

#72

I understood your sarcasm in the that post, but what I found to be comical was your lack of knowledge on the subject. At least now you are informed. For future reference, it usually helps when your statements are based on fact and/or actual experience and not assumptions. You see, there I am being an asshole. Big deal.

Bribing techs is not a regular occurrence and the few tech’s who do it are very hesitant or very choosy with who they do it with. Their livelihood is on the line. Also, it costs WAY more than $50-$100 to go this route, more like $400-$1000+. For many owners, it is simply easier and/or cheaper to remove the suspect parts and go back to stock.

I never claimed or tried to state any facts. I simply found your example of ways that you made seem common to pass emissions. I don’t live in Cali you are right about that but tell me can a tech getting paid what $20/hr? Really tell the difference between a factory installed S/C and an Aftermarket one. APR has a very clean install and anyone who wasn’t familiar with audi might not even know. And while you may feel the OP didn’t do his hw, the majority of others disagree. If a company is going to make a claim over the phone/email they had better back it up when it involves a 20k supercharger. Glad to hear the stage 2 cars are finally on the road, looking forward to results.

#73

I guess this argument will never be settled depending on ones point of view of which there are many. However, not all customers looking to buy a S/C are going to do their due diligence and that’s a fact. That’s where these so called established and well know S/C manufacturers need to step up to the plate and be counted for. Fact is they are suppose to be the go to guys and the customers do trust them why else would they give them their hard earned money? If they are not sure about anything then misleading statements like this should not be made.

[quote]From what I read, they said it should pass. “Should” does not imply will.
[/quote]
Correct, “Should” does not imply will but it also imply that it might. That right there is misleading if they can’t say for sure.

Then perhaps they should change that statement to read something like this

They said it more than likely won’t pass. “Won’t” definitely does not imply it will.

#74

AussieDan wrote it best here: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/593503-APR-Stage-3-Owners-Supercharger-B7-RS4-Readiness-Codes-Help?p=9784851&viewfull=1#post9784851

Ultimately, the discussion isn’t about passing emissions as a whole. It’s about passing the industry standard OBD2 test.
Heck, it’s not even about that as passing the test implies passing the criteria which might change from county to county. The issue at hand is passing the car’s readiness codes. That’s all. Plain and simple.

We’re not talking about sniff tests, we’re not talking about visual inspections, we’re not talking about how many incompletes you’re allowed. We’re talking about one thing: Does the car display “pass” for the vagcom OBD2 readiness parameters or not. That’s all.

As for due diligence, so what how many APR reps he asked and whether he got a “should” answer or a “will” answer.
The fact remains that the SC doesn’t pass OBD2 readiness and the SC owner is informing everyone of this, something that should have been mentioned by another APR buyer a long time ago.

#75

Still being a douche bag…

95% of the world already think the RS4 is turbocharged or supercharged to begin with. Most of these inspection mechs are probably on the same level as a monkey, guys that actually know shit aren’t stuck inspecting cars…they fix cars.

When I got my B7 S4 half the idiots I ran into argued that it was twin turbo…fuck even the guy I sold it to said “I talked to my friend last night, Are you sure this is an S4?, because he said it should be twin turbo” I almost didn’t sell him the car over that…lol

#76

[quote=rxheven]From what I read, they said it should pass. “Should” does not imply will.
[/quote]
You’re basing your whole thing on that are you? Is that a direct quote of a direct quote? Or a conversational term Danny used in sharing what he was told by apr?

It’s not like they said 'we don’t know really… I mean it should but we can’t guarantee that so maybe you should hold off until we can 100% be sure".

They answered him directly that the kit has no problems with a readiness test, and then he bought. Even after he bought, and had his problems, his apr dealer was telling him ‘no, something must be wrong with your car’ only to test ANOTHER APR 1320 car, and it failed to complete the test.

If so you’re desperate. And you’re proving my ‘argumentative’ point for me.

Face it…Apr and their dealer fucked up. End of story. Now how they deal with it will be interesting. As I said they have three options

  1. Learn to write a file that gets around their design problem and deliver that to the customer in question

  2. Ignore him and hope this blows over and that more people like you confuse the issue and derail the thread by focusing on california and other unrelated factors

  3. Refund him

#77

I am going to bet APR is going to try to find a way around the problem. They are one of the biggest aftermarket companies and this problem just surfaced, yet JHM and AMD are both able to pass readiness. Gessalt confirmed yesterday that his Aviva/AMD kit did indeed pass readiness so it is not a matter of whether its possible or not, its the way APR’s tuner got around the problem.

#78

From what I know there’s 3 ways to go about it…

  1. Put no effort into readiness and mark your product as “for off road use only”

  2. Force readiness, which can fail certain emissions testing.

  3. Tune properly, readiness displays properly despite the aftermarket part(s). I know of one company that does this.

#79

Fair enough. It is not common place as I already mentioned.

Doing what I can to entertain the masses I suppose. Oh and btw, thanks for contributing and bringing the conversation to a higher standard as expected on this forum. You might find this a more fitting playground for your name calling:
http://www.audizine.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/14-General-Chit-Chat

No, I’m not. I went back and reread a post of his yesterday and saw that. It may or may not have been a conversational term, but is at least worth mentioning.

In my point of view, parts/kits like the one in question have either gone through the emissions certification and will pass or have not gone through the process and will not pass. Pretty simple to me. Perhaps I have lived in and been modifying cars in CA for too long and see no grey area to be confused about.

Very true.
If I’m wrong about anything, it’s that I tried to convince others of my opinion. I happen to live by the old adage of “Buyer Beware.”

#80

The comical thing is you can’t ignore me. Sorry I don’t reserve my intellectual and prefessional comments for random car forum conversations. Seriously, your still being a douche…just let it go.

You didn’t add anything pertinent to the OPs thread on AZ. All you could focus on was how wrong your thought 65vette was and express your opinion on the thought that if people buy performace parts for their cars they can’t expect to pass emissions.

That attitude didn’t help anyone. The guy did his research, asked both the distributor and APR if he would be fine and honestly they probably all just said yes because plenty of money is on the line. He dropped $20k plus install and more for a product he was assured would be fine and now he can’t use it or his $40k RS4 it’s attached to. The true reason is the tuning so that needs fixed. APR needs to get their new hot shot tuner to figure out this readiness issue, but then again Dodge Neons probably didn’t have a very complen ECU.