Audi C6 S6 v10 Info Dump

A6 All/ S6 All
#161

That seal is under the ladder frame that is one big set of bearing caps for the camshafts. What a odd place for seal since most of the cars like the 2.0Ts just use a green silicone sealant for that part.

To replace those seals the ladder frame would have to come off. Since the ladder frame holds the camshafts in place that would mean that the upper timing chains and camshaft adjusters would have to be loosened/removed. Otherwise the tension from the chains would break the camshafts. Definitely an engine pull type of job because I don’t remember there being enough room on the V10s to try it with the engine in the car.

Man if you keep adding stuff like this to the list then it will blow up your budget. Sometimes you don’t want to open the can of worms.

#162

Thanks Jimmy! That’s what I needed to know. And I agree with you, it doesnt seem wise to have a seal that will need replacement in a place that is so difficult to access. I have a strong feeling that we are going to find out this is a common problem with these engines.

Budget got blown the second I bought the car. LOL

Instead of a monthly car payment, I just have a project payment. So the budget keeps getting bigger and bigger as time goes on.

As you can tell, I have a problem with scope creep with my projects. With this type of project, I really want to get everything taken care of while we are in there, with the engine out. I saved a lot of money by getting a higher mileage car, but the idea was to use that extra cash to replace any of the suspect parts while the engine was out.

In the end, the total budget for the project is going to exceed the price I paid for the car. Pretty crazy, but I am hoping the car will be as solid as a rock by the time everything is done.

I know when we ran our initial tests, I was getting misfires on a couple of cylinders. Then, when the spark plugs were pulled, one or two (I can’t remember) had oil on them. Ill have to ask to see if the plugs with the oil were the same cylinders that had the misfires.

Interestingly, the car on AZ that had the problems with the plug gaskets and the coolant pipe seal, only has 62k miles on it. Mine has almost double the mileage, and doesnt seem any worse. I wonder if these problems are more effected by vehicle age then mileage. Both cars are 07s.

Makes me feel like I made the right decision going with a higher mileage car and then putting the saved cash back into it.

By the time we are done, I hope to have a checklist of all the problem parts that should be replaced while the engine is out, if you wanted to end up with a reliable and healthy drivetrain.

#163

I feel ya on the budget, im gonna be over the price of the car in upgrades once I buy new rims and rubber. doesn’t take long. ive done that with every project car though, just this one is astronomically more than all my other ones.

#164

I know, it’s crazy. Why can’t we be like all the other normal people, and just go lease a car and leave it bone stock.

When I came back across the border by bus after dropping my car off in the US, I was questioned by a Border Agent. She asked me how I got down to Detroit. I guess she knew but she wanted to see my response.

I told her I drove down and dropped the car off for some work, and was taking the bus back. She continued to tell me “you know that is not normal, right”. I just laughed, and said, “yeah, I know”

#165

I just looked deeper into that seal and man that makes no sense. Usually the gasket is just up top but it looks like there is a top plate to the cams. Bummer. The only thing I can think of is that the plug would have to be super loose or the coil pack not fully on the plug for misfires. The electronic delivery is at the top of the plug oil at the bottom shouldn’t make a big deal. The 42 motors weep oil past the gasket onto the plugs and they never seem to have issues from it

#166

I cant own anything that’s not customized to my exact specs lol. I get it bro.

#167

Good info and insight. With the engine already out, I wonder how many hours it is to remove the top plates and replace the seals. The seals themselves are only $12 each. It reminds me of the typical European car horror story - $12 part with 30 hours labor to replace LOL

If it is 2 or 3 hours to do with the engine out, I would say it is probably worth it to have them replaced. If more, or if it risks things not going back together correctly, then I may have to reconsider.

This is a pic of some Lambo v10 heads that have a similar design, just to give you an idea of what the top caps look like when removed.

http://ep1.pinkbike.org/p4pb11651074/p4pb11651074.jpg

I’ve been scouring the web for some Lambo/R8 v10 cams for cheap. I figure, if we’re already in there with the head uppers off, why not take a look at a cam swap too. I dont know how much of a difference they would make though, or even if they would fit. Maybe with a higher readline and better intake they might work well.

#168

Oh trust me I know about having scope creep issues with my projects. I constantly think about things that I can still do to my car and I have to stop myself to realize what is actually possible.

Just to double check I looked at the SSPs for all the other FSI engines that use that type ladder frame (multiple different 2.0T I4, 3.2 V6, 4.2 V8s, 3.0T V6, 4.0TT) and none of them show a similar type seal between the ladder frame and the cylinder head around the spark plug hole. The rear upper timing chain covers do look exactly like the 4.2 FSI V8s though so I would imagine that the V10s will have the same problem of coolant mixing with oil like what NY07RS4 went through.

What would worry me about replacing those seals around the spark plug holes is if when the timing chain area is opened up that there will be broken or worn out timing chain guides or mechanical camshaft adjusters. Otherwise you are simply looking at also replacing a few gaskets, seals, silicone sealant, and a bunch of stretch bolts. Definitely more than a two to three hour job since the intake manifold, oil filter housing, rear coolant pipe, secondary air combi valves and hoses all have to come off to open up the rear upper timing chain covers.

#169

Thanks info Jimmy

I think we are taking off the intake manifold and the SAI stuff anyway, so it seems like it may be the ideal time to do these seals. I’m going to run it all by CV and see if we can work it into the plans.

#170

Details on RS4 coolant pipe seal issue, that Jimmy mentioned…
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/468338-Compression-test

#171

Just found out Audizine is blocking the link in my sig to this thread. What BS.

Anyway, evidence of another car with misfires and oil around the spark plugs and in the cylinders. Looks like this is going to be a common problem with these cars.
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/621125-CEL-P0308-misfire-on-a-5-2-v!0

#172

mec mentioned that if you use a link shortened website like this: https://bitly.com/

That your links will still work. Try it because it has worked for me.

#173

Thanks!

#174

MISFIRES on the v10

One of the most common, hard to diagnose, recurring problem that I am finding with these cars is related to misfires on specific cylinders. Owners try all the usual stuff (new plugs, new coil packs, carbon clean, etc) and can’t seem to track them down. Some people have gone as far as ripping the engine apart.

Following is an interesting account (and not the first I have read about) of misfires being cause by the wiring or clips to the coil packs.

[b][i]I had the same problem with the number 5 & 10 cylinders and tried the same fixes…smoke testing, fuel pressure checking, MAF checking, new plugs, new coils, carbon cleaning, new injectors on #5 & #10, new intake manifold gaskets, new valve cover gaskets, compression testing, wire chasing, etc. I haven’t seen a lean code for any bank other than 2. The car would misfire like crazy as the car came up to temp. I could stop and restart the car once it got hot and not have any issues. After each attempted fix, the problem would go away for a while but kept coming back. See below for what was causing the issue…this took a lot of trouble shooting to figure out…about 4 months and lots of angry looks from my wife to get it resolved. Every Audi specialist I talked to thought it was something with the ECU…who could blame them. The solution dawned on me when the weather warmed up and the issue went away only to return when we got a quick blast of cold weather.

What I had was the connectors for the #5 and #10 coils backing off their coils, just a little, as the car cooled down. When the car would heat up, the expansion would push them tight again. The root of my problem was the clips on the connectors being broken from the loom being connected and disconnected so many times. I think this misfire problem is why my car’s previous owner got rid it and kindly didn’t tell me about. What I did to resolve this after much hunting and various procedures was to loosen the two torx screws that holds the coils’ wire loom in place, just a little, so that the wire loom could float during warm up and cool down. I used a little blue lock tight to keep the torx screws from backing out. I haven’t had any misfire problems since figuring out that little trick.[/i][/b]

http://forums.ross-tech.com/showthread.php?84-07-Audi-S6-5-2L-V10-MAF-sensor-logging&p=1301&viewfull=1#post1301

So, if you are getting recurring misfires on specific cylinders, then this would be a relatively easy thing to check. Easier than replacing your spark plug tube seals anyway :slight_smile:

#175

Funny.

An rs4 owner recently replaced his battery and updated his existing Apr tune and his misfire codes went away. Of course maybe the tune changed misfire sensitivity. Who knows. If it was his battery that’s pretty funny.

#176

v8a6, It was common practice to throw those small torx screws away whenever replacing ignition coils or spark plugs at every dealership that I ever worked at. It made certain cars so much easier to work on too like B6 A4 3.0 V6s. Those screws are not needed at all.

Saki, The guy that you are talking about posted after Christmas that the CEL came back on. I highly doubted that the battery was the issue. His case is really weird since he has basically thrown everything and the kitchen sink at it.

#177

Thanks for the tip, Jimmy!

#178

Update:

The S6 with chronic misfires is still experiencing them after the engine pull and replacement of the spark plug tube seals. Not fun for him at all. So much so that he was ready to dump the car as soon as it was repaired. Now, he is further delayed until the problem is fixed (under warranty)

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/631605-Who-wants-to-get-a-pool-going-for-when-my-S6-will-finally-be-out-of-the-shop

Props to Justinincredible who predicted this outcome. I would say that until there is at least one confirmed case of the spark plug tube seals, not just leaking but causing an issue, then we will disregard them as a root cause of misfires on these engines.

The Dealership is now saying that it might be previous electrical issues or a bad motor mount causing the issues. Sounds like they are grasping at straws at this point.

So, I have forwarded Irish the info on the misfires due to the coil pack connectors backing out. We will see if this helps any.

#179

tell him to get a new battery lol (RS4 guy claims that solved his misfires)

#180

No, now he thinks it’s the alternator now because the misfires are back…not his resurfaced OEM FW with 90k miles.