Clutch question

B6/7 S4/RS4
#93

For me, the installation was done by a JHM approved mechanic and I followed the break-in period to a T (I don’t even have ANY chatter it’s so well broken in :slight_smile: ) so I’m not sure what my problem is. We’re swapping out the slave cylinder next week. We’ll see.

I’m just wondering what could possible change the point of friction on a clutch pedal. It’s like the entire throw of the pedal was reduced to an inch (i.e. everything works the way it’s supposed to work, I just only have an inch from all the way down to all the way up (until I manually pull the pedal back)). What the hell could cause something like that? Hydraulic based or mechanical? Logically, it sounds more hydraulic based as the clutch itself is working just fine. Weird…

#94

sounds hydraulic to me

#95

I don’t know how much of that I buy though. I don’t think the Count even knows you’re supposed to lift off the gas when shifting, and JHM’s videos show a lot of abuse with speed shifting showing how solid the product is. They designed these clutches to be bullet proof (not idiot proof though, that’s another story) and take abuse.

Obviously mine was installed by JHM, and I did a full proper break-in prior to romping on it (trust me, the count’s break-in tune was weaker than a std s4 probably and there was no spirited shifts during break in).

I gave my stock clutch HELL before swapping out b/c I really wanted to learn how to shift faster and more efficiently. It helped a lot being able to push it knowing it was going in the trash soon. The new setup has been killer for a long time. It wasn’t until just recently with slightly more aggressive tuning (still not even close to balls out) that I’ve been experiencing this issue. I haven’t had any time to look into it further though, work & life have been hectic and have really only driven the car maybe 4 times in the last 3 weeks.

#96

i’m not talking about your specific problems (anyones). Just a PSA. With respect to being off the throttle I’m talking about when driving around normally, and I’m talking about RS4s so it’s nothing to do with you. More for sub. I see lots of RS4 drivers who glaze/slip their clutch going into EVERY gear. Doing that when you’re breaking in a clutch isn’t going to last.

Think back over the past 4 years. We’ve seen a dozen guys have problems with these clutches. Has it ever been the clutch or flywheel or pressure plate that has actually failed? Seems to have always been some other supporting hardware or installation problem.

You guys (axel, speedetc, madison) are all supercharged and can pretty much all rule out installer error. You can also pretty much rule out the clutch/flyywheel/pressure plate failing unless JHM didn’t account for the torque your SC cars would make (but it’s odd that half a dozen other supercharged/nitrous guys with the same setups aren’t having this problem).

#97

sounds like a mess to me…gibson is having clutch issues too on quattroworld on his rs4 with jhm stg 4.

if i were to get a clutch I would go with the jhm setup but hearing all this shit scares me away now. glad i am not in need of one yet and hopefully by then they or someone will have something that is not such a beeitch to install, if it is install error.

#98

of course you’re scared swesna. You come from quattroworld…land of no information and lots of FUD campaigning.

Let’s look at the timeline and facts around gibsonl instead to see why people on AR are not scared.

03/27 - JHM clutch installed

03/28 - gibsonl asks on quattrofail how to break in the clutch, even thought the JHM literature clearly says ‘750 miles of CITY DRIVING’
'So what exactly does driving 750 city miles mean? Do I want to be doing a lot of down shifting at low revs or high revs? I guess driving in one gear for long periods of time is worthless right. Have any of you noticed that if you try to let the clutch out with the car in first and adding late throttle, there’s a bit of a vibration in the drivetrain?
Why is he asking if the instructions are right there? Is he looking for a reason to shorten the breakin periiod by cutting some corners???
'I have to get these miles in within 8 days for my track event next weekend so I want to make sure I do this right! ‘’

OHHHH…okay, now we know where this is going (we have been posting about this guy on audirevolution in the lulz on other forums thread and others all week knowing he would fuck this up.

03/29 - Kai @ elite gives some terirble advice - ‘I’ve broken in a clutch in 250-300 miles pretty much 2 days before the Miami Mile for a 997T. Get on the highway and keep shifting 4-5-6, 4-5-6, 4-5-6…’
Note that NONE of this has ANYTHING to do with gibsonl’s question or the JHM break in method. He basically tells him to run 1/3 the recommended miles, and on the completely wrong place (highway, not city)…then admits that Kai didn’t trust that break in so he ran another car at the Miami Mile event.

03/29 - quattrothatcould, an A4 1.8T owner with NOTHING from JHM on his car, let alone a clutch/flywheel compounds the situation '2nd what Kai said. 750mi actually seems on the long end of what’s needed. ’
So now these fucking guys are re-writing the instructions for JHM???

gibsonl would never listen to them though, right???

03/29 - gibsonl says ‘I’m sure I’ll have 250 miles on it by tomorrow night so doing the 750 miles isn’t an issue. Hopefully I can put in 3-400 this weekend as well.’
Umm…doesn’t sound like he’s doing city miles, does it. He has 250 miles on the clutch in 2 days of city driving??? You have to be kidding me. Of course not. He’s doing fucking highway miles because someone told him what he wanted to hear (even though it’s the total OPPOSITE of what JHM told him to do).

04/03 - gibsoni on audiworld says ‘This stage 4 clutch has a super shallow engagement so should be quick!’ to which I reply ‘uh oh…should be just like stock. This is symptomatic of an install problem. Who installed it?’…which is when he tells us his Audi dealer did. Shiny floors there I guess. Must know what they’re doing.

04/03 - I realise who this is and confirm it 'Aren’t you the guy who had it installed like 5 days ago? And were advised that 250 miles of break in would be ok for you (and your trackday/dragstrip day)? If so I hope you ignored that advice and followed the instructions on break in. ’ gibsonl replies ‘I’m 650 miles in so no concerns with getting to 800-900 by Friday which meets the break-in requirement’ (basically dodging the question and the fact that he has NOT met the break in requirement. Highway miles doing the odd downshift do not equal city miles).
He was at 250 miles by March 30th…and is at 650 by April 3rd…so he put 400 miles on in 30 days. OK…so it’s a guarantee that he has IGNORED the JHM instructions of 750 miles of city break in miles…and has just been commuting on the highway using the Kai method (that Kai himself didn’t actually trust lol)

With all these warnings, he’d never go to a track day with an improperly broken in clutch that was already showing signs of an install problem, would he??

04/07 - gibsonl starts a thread on quattrofail showing a video from his track day at Summit. Guess he didn’t take the advice to skip the event and properly break it in. A3TDI, myself and Reggie all advised him to do that.
http://forums.quattroworld.com/rs4b7/msgs/79777.phtml

04/07 - gibsoni starts a ‘stage 4 clutch shuddering’ thread on quattrofail, and people like swesna get scared.
http://forums.quattroworld.com/rs4b7/msgs/79759.phtml

JHM clutch break in
#99

what about all of these ppl on this thread?? seems like numerous ppl are having issues…i have watched the entire gibson timeline and agree my ass would not have gone to the track…wait shit i do not go there anyway. I figured i got to at least enjoy my car w/o beating on it there for a year first.

seems like some ppl are saying it is install related, loctite on bolts or not properly bleeding the fluid
or it could be synchro gears
or it could be the parts that were installed

has to be something but how many cars are you hearing about with issues related to the jhm clutch … even those guys from England were having issues.

i think you are right maybe i can just stick to a part that is reliable ie the intake manifold spacer which from what i heard which may not be true is made by 034.

i like the whole idea around the lwfw and was/potentially am thinking about getting a stg 3/4 with lwfw from jhm but it does scare me hearing these issues.

hopefully you can summarize the true cause of these issues since it is really hard to track all of the ppl having issues on this thread ie some are S4, some are RS4, some have super chargers…oh wait that may be the cause of their potential issues too…too much hp.

#100

I think the issues here all happen to be supercharged B7’s for some as yet unidentified reason. The irony is that the B6 kit uses an upgraded design from the B7 clutch. Yet none of the supercharged B6’s have had an issue. Same kit for the B6 and the B7.

As for Horsepower and sub, no idea what’s going on there but they’re RS4’s.

#101

why are we blaming the JHM hardware when we haven’t determined the cause for those guys? JHM sends the clutch flywheel and pressure plate but speedetc. replaced other supporting parts and resolved his issue. Did you miss that post? axel and madison have yet to do what speedetc did I believe

[quote]has to be something but how many cars are you hearing about with issues related to the jhm clutch … even those guys from England were having issues.
[/quote]
I thought horsepower received the full kit but didn’t install it all…he wanted to just use the clutch or the clutch and flywheel, but not the pressure plate, (or something like that) so his issues may have something to do with that. He will chime in eventually.

[quote]i think you are right maybe i can just stick to a part that is reliable ie the intake manifold spacer which from what i heard which may not be true is made by 034.
[/quote]
no idea how that applies to this thread

[quote]i like the whole idea around the lwfw and was/potentially am thinking about getting a stg 3/4 with lwfw from jhm but it does scare me hearing these issues.
[/quote]
ask yourself a question - why are people buying these JHM clutches (or sachs or loba etc.)? Is it because the clutches on these cars just eventually die? So are you scared of the stock clutch? Mick’s stock clutch was destroyed at like 20,000 miles. Does that scare you? Better get that thing out of your car.

maybe just read the thread or other info on the products.

p.s. the ironic part is that about a dozen posts in this thread were made by guys with the clutch and no problems. There are a few hundred other people with the kits and they’re working flawlessly. Of course the squeeky wheel gets the grease, whether it’s a legit complaint or not. And you’re scared.

#102

Here some food for thought. If the car is not going into gear like it should there is a good chance the flywheel bolts have backed out. It will start out as being hard to get into gear like it is a hydraulic issue. Then it will get to a point where it wont go into gear. SO for the guys with issues not going into gear i would suspect that one or more of their bolts have came loose. Now if you have an issue with the clutch not coming all the way back up then id suspect a hydraulic issue with either the slave or master. Could also be heated up fluid that has broken down. The cheapest thing to change would be to try doing a fluid flush and make sure you bleed it properlly. Then if that doesnt work the look into the slave and line. ANd keep on going on from there.

#103

As the owner of TTS I am working with JHM in a professional manner to try and isolate and resolve the issues I have with my JHM clutch. I am at this time waiting for a reponse to my last questions and suggestions. My JHM clutch was fitted complete, not parts. The LWF, friction disc and PP unfortunately the release bearing they sent was the wrong one even though I gave them my VIN number but this has nothing to do with the issues I have.

#104

That is correct. Way too early to determine what the problem is. The plan (for me) is to replace the slave cylinder, the line between the master and slave cylinders and the fluid (obviously).
The fluid will be RBF600 since I need high temp brake fluid anyway.

As for me being supercharged, yes, I have more power but the tune still hasn’t gone all out. It’s still a conservative tune so the amount of power isn’t huge yet.

Oh and one last thing, the clutch itself is working just fine. I drive it every day, just got back from a road trip during easter weekend, etc. The problem is that the PEDAL isn’t coming back up properly when I PUNCH it all the way to redline. And even then, the clutch itself is still working, it’s just that my entire pedal’s throw is reduced to an inch instead of the full regular throw. The clutch still engages just as it should etc. With all of these symptoms, the first thought is a hydraulic issue. I have no issues getting into any gears, etc. We’ll see soon enough though and I’ll update the thread of course.

#105

@swensa - per saki’s comments I wouldn’t fear the JHM setup. I ran the setup hard for approximately 30k miles before having an issue. While I cannot pinpoint the root cause of my issue, it has been working flawlessly since the last bit of work. I am still running the JHM parts, but do have a new slave, master and TO bearing (still the standard part). My issue could have been hydraulic related and the multiple times bleeding the system resolved it, but it is hard to say since other parts were changed out. End of the day, the base parts remain the same.

#106

Update: My mechanic replaced the fluid, the line between the master and slave cylinder and the slave cylinder itself. Unfortunately, this hasn’t fixed the problem. :frowning:

My mechanic is going to be contacting JHM directly to see if they have any suggestions but this is really strange. The symptoms seem like it’s hydraulic but the only remaining hydraulic piece of the puzzle that hasn’t been swapped is the master cylinder. Everything else has. Really strange and annoying seeing as it’s only happened to 3 of us (i.e. not many people to go to). My mechanic and I would rather not have to go into the tranny but we’re running out of options…

#107

Another update: I’m now hearing a metallic spring like noise when I push the clutch pedal in and out. The same noise if you took a spring and pulled on it and let it go back over and over again.

Seems to confirm the release/throw out bearing culprit (which is what ended up fixing Speed’s clutch problem).

Thoughts?

#108

I’d kinda been holding off until someone else dove in, b/c this is something I’ll probably be doing on my garage floor solo, and I just don’t have the time right now.

I was really thinking hydraulic earlier, and almost bought a new slave, line, & master. But I’ve held off under the suspicion that it was the throw out bearing as well. Right now I’ve been working on other stuff and just driving the jeep though.

#109

Sorry, I am a little late to this thread. But for what it’s worth I have a B7 S4 supercharged with a stage III clutch, all installed by JHM. I have had zero issues with my clutch

#110

Hey cks. How’s it going with your avant?

#111

Solid. Although since it’s my DD, to be honest, I didn’t need the clutch. As you know, I’m not a 1/4 mile guy, so I don’t get into it until I’m in gear anyway. And it’s a little harder to drive, so a skoootch annoying for a DD, and I live in snow 6 months of the year. Should have done the IM and spacers instead… Still sorting out the tune - contributing data to the Count and getting new tunes every few months.

I added a trailer hitch, and plan to convert the roof rack to whisper bars and a box- cleaning it up a little. Next up is new 19" summer wheels/tires. I think I’ve narrowed it down to either Forgestar/VMR and Peelers. Well actually, next up is to have a baby in 3 weeks. Then maybe get new wheels.

All is good, car is super fast, and as you know the avant looks incredible. Four friends have bought Audi’s recently based on my car: Two B8 A4 Avants, a B8 S4, a B7 RS4, and two allroad A4s on order.

#112

This comment is really only for those seeking explanations and not seeking to make more excuses (ie saki). I also had issues with getting into gear. Once everything was torn down it was proven that no bolts had backed out and loctite was used. My clutch was also determined, by JHM, to show normal wear which is why reinstalling it was suggested. I guess anyone trying to really figure out what’s going on can add that info to their files. Also, I noticed the shuddering on the start of the second lap of my first session at the track day. For all those familiar with how HPDE’s work, the first lap is under full caution to allow the equipment to get up to temp. This means a max of around 80mph with me keeping revs below 7k. Also coasting through corners as opposed to aggressive downshifting. Most of this activity would be consistent with normal daily driving. I hope someone figures it out so I can send saki a pair of my dirty draws so he can kiss them and accomplish the first ever international ass kissing.lol