It just doesn't work: Tesla

[Jake]

Tesla has one of the “Supercharger?” stations in my town at a local Bass Pro and shopping center. There are restaurants and a movie theater in the same parking lot.

Could technically go there and hang out while the Tesla gets charged.

I am not well versed in Tesla so I don’t know if these public chargers are common or not. But if they are, you could save quite a bit of coin doing that.

if it’s 10 bucks for about 250 miles, and you do 15,000 miles a year, ‘free’ charging only saves you about $600/year vs. charging at home

Not huge.

Oh…and you had to pay $30,000 more than a similar Audi/Mercedes/BMW/Jaguar to get into the Tesla. If you keep it for 5 years, and the car depreciates 50% over that period, you just spent an extra $15,000 to save $10,000 over that period on gasoline. And the government had to subsidize it by taking tax dollars from all of your neighbours. Oh…and the environment is still fucked because your battery and your plugging in fuck the environment similar to the gasoline engines.

As the title of the thread says, it just doesn’t work.

Oh that’s lame

[westwest888]

Someone vote down Elon’s karma. He thinks his company could be the first to $1 trillion. I was mad when west said it, but we have to ban this guy from the Internet. These are dangerous ideas that challenge VW hegemony!

http://www.cnbc.com/2016/06/22/elon-musk-solarcity-acquisition-could-push-teslas-valuation-to-1-trillion.html

[clochner]

quit trolling, west. your post doesn’t even make sense.

[clochner]

Blistering lead editorial in tomorrow’s Journal:

Elon Musk’s Subsidy Aggregation

The billionaire tries to integrate his taxpayer-backed business model.

Elon Musk didn’t become a billionaire without brass, and this week he floated one of his most outrageous bets: an offer by his taxpayer-subsidized Tesla Motors to buy his taxpayer-subsidized SolarCity. Tesla shareholders and Wall Street analysts are howling, but didn’t they always know they were buying a business model that depended on the kindness of politicians?

The electric-car maker offered to acquire the solar panel company at a more than 20% premium over SolarCity’s previous share price in an all-stock transaction. “Tesla customers can drive clean cars and they can use our battery packs to help consume energy more efficiently,” the company said in a blog post, “but they still need access to the most sustainable energy source that’s available: the sun.”

The ostensible plan is to set up a one-stop shop so folks buying $85,000 Teslas don’t have to walk across the street to buy solar panels, among other “synergies.” Mr. Musk predicted, with his typically modest ambition, that the merger will lead to a Tesla valuation of $1 trillion, or about 34 times what it was Wednesday.

He may need one of his SpaceX rockets to get there. Tesla shares fell 10% Wednesday, or more than the $2.8 billion value of SolarCity, as investors asked why one money-losing company would be better off buying another money-losing company. SolarCity was once a darling of the green energy set, but its shares have fallen more than 50% in the past year as its political advantage ebbs.

The company’s solar-panel leasing business grew rapidly thanks to federal tax credits and state “net metering” programs that underwrite installation and let companies hawk renewable power back to the grid at high prices. New York’s Governor Andrew Cuomo wrote a taxpayer check for $750 million for a SolarCity plant in 2014.

But net metering has been exposed as a crony-capitalist scheme that forces nonsolar customers to subsidize their solar-using and often wealthier neighbors. Nevada recently capped its solar-metering handout. Hawaii has also changed its repayment structure, and others of the 40 or so states with programs may follow.

SolarCity is bleeding cash, and the suspicion is that Mr. Musk is engineering what amounts to a bailout by Tesla. The problem is that Tesla is also spending its available cash to develop its Model 3, which is billed as an electric car even the masses can afford. Tesla has an unusually high debt-to-equity ratio, and it isn’t obvious how adding another cash-needy company will increase value. Caveat shareholder.

Tesla’s cars have a devoted following, and its stock has had a brilliant run. But it isn’t clear how competitive it would be without taxpayer support: The car maker rakes in money—$168 million in 2015, up from $3 million in 2011—thanks to the racket known as state zero-emission vehicle credits. Tesla only produces electric cars, so it can sell its extra state-supplied credits to auto makers that don’t reach government fuel-efficiency standards.

Tesla’s $5 billion Nevada battery plant received more than $1 billion in breaks on property and sales taxes, along with discounts on electricity, and even a 30% federal credit for solar generation. Don’t forget President Obama’s $7,500 federal tax credit for every electric-car buyer. That’s right, Uncle Sam pays the likes of Leonardo DiCaprio so they can flaunt their green virtue on the highway.

If Mr. Musk can make a market success of electric cars and lithium-ion batteries, he’ll have served customers and earned his billions. But so far Tesla looks more like a classic of the reverse income redistribution of green crony capitalism, in which middle-class taxpayers subsidize billionaires who make products to satisfy the anti-fossil-fuel indulgences of the upper classes. That Mr. Musk is reshuffling his Tesla balance sheet to subsidize his own solar venture is a sign that this may not be a sustainable business model.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/elon-musks-subsidy-aggregation-1466638430

[sakimano]

When you plug your ears and dream about fairytales and pie in the sky fantasies, as well as hopes and dreams funded by liberal governments, Tesla looks great. When you look at the cold hard facts however, it’s amazing how bad it looks.

Blistering lead editorial in tomorrow’s Journal:

Elon Musk’s Subsidy Aggregation

The billionaire tries to integrate his taxpayer-backed business model.

Elon Musk didn’t become a billionaire without brass, and this week he floated one of his most outrageous bets: an offer by his taxpayer-subsidized Tesla Motors to buy his taxpayer-subsidized SolarCity. Tesla shareholders and Wall Street analysts are howling, but didn’t they always know they were buying a business model that depended on the kindness of politicians?

The electric-car maker offered to acquire the solar panel company at a more than 20% premium over SolarCity’s previous share price in an all-stock transaction. “Tesla customers can drive clean cars and they can use our battery packs to help consume energy more efficiently,” the company said in a blog post, “but they still need access to the most sustainable energy source that’s available: the sun.”

The ostensible plan is to set up a one-stop shop so folks buying $85,000 Teslas don’t have to walk across the street to buy solar panels, among other “synergies.” Mr. Musk predicted, with his typically modest ambition, that the merger will lead to a Tesla valuation of $1 trillion, or about 34 times what it was Wednesday.

He may need one of his SpaceX rockets to get there. Tesla shares fell 10% Wednesday, or more than the $2.8 billion value of SolarCity, as investors asked why one money-losing company would be better off buying another money-losing company. SolarCity was once a darling of the green energy set, but its shares have fallen more than 50% in the past year as its political advantage ebbs.

The company’s solar-panel leasing business grew rapidly thanks to federal tax credits and state “net metering” programs that underwrite installation and let companies hawk renewable power back to the grid at high prices. New York’s Governor Andrew Cuomo wrote a taxpayer check for $750 million for a SolarCity plant in 2014.

But net metering has been exposed as a crony-capitalist scheme that forces nonsolar customers to subsidize their solar-using and often wealthier neighbors. Nevada recently capped its solar-metering handout. Hawaii has also changed its repayment structure, and others of the 40 or so states with programs may follow.

SolarCity is bleeding cash, and the suspicion is that Mr. Musk is engineering what amounts to a bailout by Tesla. The problem is that Tesla is also spending its available cash to develop its Model 3, which is billed as an electric car even the masses can afford. Tesla has an unusually high debt-to-equity ratio, and it isn’t obvious how adding another cash-needy company will increase value. Caveat shareholder.

Tesla’s cars have a devoted following, and its stock has had a brilliant run. But it isn’t clear how competitive it would be without taxpayer support: The car maker rakes in money—$168 million in 2015, up from $3 million in 2011—thanks to the racket known as state zero-emission vehicle credits. Tesla only produces electric cars, so it can sell its extra state-supplied credits to auto makers that don’t reach government fuel-efficiency standards.

Tesla’s $5 billion Nevada battery plant received more than $1 billion in breaks on property and sales taxes, along with discounts on electricity, and even a 30% federal credit for solar generation. Don’t forget President Obama’s $7,500 federal tax credit for every electric-car buyer. That’s right, Uncle Sam pays the likes of Leonardo DiCaprio so they can flaunt their green virtue on the highway.

If Mr. Musk can make a market success of electric cars and lithium-ion batteries, he’ll have served customers and earned his billions. But so far Tesla looks more like a classic of the reverse income redistribution of green crony capitalism, in which middle-class taxpayers subsidize billionaires who make products to satisfy the anti-fossil-fuel indulgences of the upper classes. That Mr. Musk is reshuffling his Tesla balance sheet to subsidize his own solar venture is a sign that this may not be a sustainable business model.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/elon-musks-subsidy-aggregation-1466638430

[westwest888]

It’s not “Tesla Motors”, it’s “Tesla” the energy company. $2 billion is a small acquisition for a company Tesla’s size. The second line of business, Tesla Energy, will to sell solar panels at a loss so they can move profitable batteries. It all has to do with Tesla becoming a monopoly provider of batteries, standard charging technology, and universal charging networks.

If you’re obsessing over whether or not like one car, you’re completely missing it.

I have no financial stake in Tesla other than its continued success benefits the local economy I live in. All I’m doing is relaying what I learn through research, local talks, and conversation to this dark part of the interwebs. So if you want to know about the $1T prognostication a year before Elon blasts it on the cover of WSJ, listen to west.

[westwest888]

The one thing that could fuck Tesla has come to pass - a dead driver who was on autopilot. Complete and total arrogance in marketing a level 3 autonomous system as “full autopilot”. I think the fees, fines and litigation could be as bad as the $15B VW got hit with.

Porsche Panamera has everything Tesla has. They don’t dare call it a self driving car because they’re not idiots.

http://i63.tinypic.com/xngmft.png

https://www.teslamotors.com/blog/tragic-loss

[Jupiteraudi]

It’s not “Tesla Motors”, it’s “Tesla” the energy company. $2 billion is a small acquisition for a company Tesla’s size. The second line of business, Tesla Energy, will to sell solar panels at a loss so they can move profitable batteries. It all has to do with Tesla becoming a monopoly provider of batteries, standard charging technology, and universal charging networks.

If you’re obsessing over whether or not like one car, you’re completely missing it.

I have no financial stake in Tesla other than its continued success beits the local economy I live in. All I’m doing is relaying what I learn through research, local talks, and conversation to this dark part of the interwebs. So if you want to know about the $1T prognostication a year before Elon blasts it on the cover of WSJ, listen to west.

I’ll pass, you’re an idiot.

[clochner]

Rumor has it Musk has been really hyping Autopilot, even claiming it to be more reliable than a human. Whoops.

[westwest888]

I am pretty furious with Tesla right now. Rule number 1 is you don’t kill the customer. These assist features are for fender benders. They are not capable of avoiding fatalities any better than an alert human at this stage of the technology. When the car has onboard artificial intelligence that will be a different era.

[sakimano]

I am pretty furious with Tesla right now. Rule number 1 is you don’t kill the customer. These assist features are for fender benders. They are not capable of avoiding fatalities any better than an alert human at this stage of the technology. When the car has onboard artificial intelligence that will be a different era.

looks like someone is prepping his excuse for bailing on his model 3 because it’s going to be $70,000 for a good one…

[westwest888]

Honestly I’d rather have a zero options base Panamera for $70k.

[vtgt]

A 2017, sure

[westwest888]

Prob take until 2018 for the base model to arrive.

[JackDecompiler]

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2016/0705/Tesla-misses-an-aggressive-delivery-target.-Again
Looks like Tesla is struggling to produce even small a number of cars

[Jupiteraudi]

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2016/0705/Tesla-misses-an-aggressive-delivery-target.-Again
Looks like Tesla is struggling to produce even small a number of cars

And this isn’t the first time…their estimates on deliveries are a joke.

[sakimano]

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2016/0705/Tesla-misses-an-aggressive-delivery-target.-Again
Looks like Tesla is struggling to produce even small a number of cars

And this isn’t the first time…their estimates on deliveries are a joke.

http://www.csmonitor.com/Business/In-Gear/2016/0705/Tesla-misses-an-aggressive-delivery-target.-Again
Looks like Tesla is struggling to produce even small a number of cars

And this isn’t the first time…their estimates on deliveries are a joke.

their estimates on deliveries and all products frankly are like vapourware. They float these ludicrous (pardon the pun) claims , then fail to deliver on them.

Driverless cars (going well so far)
Model S delivered by 2011 (2 years late and one of the least reliable cars ever reviewed/surveyed in consumer reports by independant owner surveys)
Model X by 2014 (over a year late and still getting recalled…and only 10% have been delivered)
Model 3 by 2017 (delayed already)
Home power charging stations (cancelled)
Gigafactory running full speed by 2017 (already 2 years behind)

I’m sure i’m missing some other shit they lied about but you get the picture. We can’t be surprised by this. The thing that’s surprising is that people keep believing them!

[westwest888]

The quarterly output issue has to do with having one factory that retools for various runs. If the run is late, it makes one quarter look bad but it front loads the next quarter. It doesn’t change the fact that order volume doesn’t fluctuate with delivery, yet. Because there is no inventory in the pipeline, it’s already 100% sold and rather predictable. That’s why the stock didn’t fall on this meaningless news.

[sakimano]

it’s pretty funny that we heard about this ‘autopilot’ killing a guy last week, and now we find out that it was actually in early may that it happened

Tesla didn’t share that information (they’d be wise to bury it) especially since they were doing a ponzi sale…I mean treasury issue of equity shares to keep the company afloat 2 weeks later.

Elon Musk said ‘auto manufacturers don’t announce all fatalities’. True. However auto manufcaturers also ought not to lie and say a car is autonomous to generate buzz (and float the stock price) only to then bury the story when they start killing customers off. And since Tesla only has about 15 customers, when 1 of them dies, that’s pretty material .

And apparently another Tesla on autopilot decided to go for a somersault off the highway down an embankment last weekend while in autopilot but the occupants managed to survive.

All of this is just a good example of how poorly run this company is by the megalomaniacal Musk, however none of it changes the original thread post. It just enforces it. Burying that death to protect the stock price right before the new issue is classic dirty pool

[westwest888]

This autopilot scheme is totally fucked and I agree they have lost all trust. I call it the Elon Donor program - donate your body to computer science, and anyone within 200’ of your car.