you might want to look into a different tune or your B5. I just havent seen anything good with the EPL/TIAL combo. The tial cars don’t come across as impressive but maybe its the tune.
Question on the rotors… kill them. like how. I have them on my car and I beat the piss out of it and there still good after 2 pad changes.
This is the biggest issue with me the these turbos. you have to exceed the speed limmit to even start seeing the frutes if the tail turbos. whats the point of that. I would like to hear more about the failure of the 605 turbos to see if the issues of old have been fixed or if we just dont see enough running tial cars to hear of all the issues.
I don’t have an issue with you or your questions. I had an issue with Pure and is incomplete thoughts. If I did have an issue with you it was in reference to my dyno post after you specifically asked me about them.
Saki, with all of the facts you have collected regarding tial cars I believe you have a very valid point and I’m in agreement with you. This is coming from a tial/EPL guy! I think there is a strong emphasis on the 1/4 mile and if anything my comments were directed to pure evil and possibly faw. My honest thoughts re: tial kits is they will always have lack luster numbers b/c they spool too late regardless who tunes the thing. It’s not a battle I’m willing to fight.
I will tell you the tials really shine in track events. Sebring, Homestead, PBIR and Daytona are the main tracks I visit and they work in these applications very well. In the avant variety it also makes for lots of laughs when other drivers approach me asking what the hell is in that thing!
Chris, do you beat the piss out of your car on the street or do you also do track events? What rotors are you using or which BBK do you have?
First set of rotors cracked from inner edge to outer edge while at Daytona, braking from 165 on the front and down from 145 on the back every lap for 25-30 minutes with five to six sessions in a day. The rotors were drilled and slotted, the learning curve for me here was avoid drilled rotors as they create weak points, rotors that are cast in lieu of drilled is a much better route. The JHM slotted set are warped after 3 trips to Homestead and a two-day event at Roebling Road.
I ordered a set of Girodisc yesterday so I’ll give them a shot.
Who else would you suggest I look into to improve the tune? JHM and Jfonz are the main two I would consider, any others?
I will tune it for you.
This logic is retarded. The 605’s of the person you quoted spool almost identically to RS6 turbos (which just so happen to spool similarly to my random GT’s). There’s two gears before 3rd gear where you aren’t speeding, and both of them have tons of power in my car (and by similitude, I assume 605’s and RS6’s do as well). 1st gear spools so fast post-3500RPM that it’s tough to time the 2nd gear change without riding the rev-limiter.
To say what you said above is like trying to say that in order to enjoy a car that gets more of its power on the right side of the powerband (like an E46 M3 or something), you have to be speeding, as if there are no gears in the car.
Sorry your wrong. Your average pump gas only RS6 car tuned properly spools 600+rpms faster than the pump/meth 605s apples for apples in hardware and make much more low end Tq/hp, I have several experiences with both of them. Sure you will dig out some EPL or AMD data or dyno charts to compare but that’s not realistic at all.
Please let’s not turn this into what setup makes more low end power because when actually driving both setups it’s like comparing K04 turbos to GT28 turbos down low.
For example, look at the dyno chart above each block represents 2.5lbs, at 3500rpm the car makes 8-9lbs at 4000 rpms the 605 is making 13lbs and the car makes 20lbs at exactly 4900 rpm which is as slow as others that run twin GT2871 turbos. Plain pump gas only RS6 cars commonly make 13lbs before 3500 rpm & 20+lbs by 3700 rpms, the difference between the 2 is more like 900+ rpms when running them to 28+lbs.
I came from an RS6 car, went to the Tial 605 car & back to the RS6 based turbo recently. From personal experience there’s much different in spool & lower end power. RS6 turbos are far more snappier far closer to my original K04 car.
Take the RS6’s out of my above post if you disagree with that part of it then. The point of my above post was that the logic of the post that I quoted is retarded as it pertains to Tial 605’s; not really trying to make a point about the RS6’s (though I will address that below). Cars have gears for a reason, and turbos the size of Tial 605’s do indeed spool in plenty of time on the 2.7l in 1st and 2nd gear to enjoy them without having to always be breaking the law.
You and whomever can complain about EPL/AMD peak dyno numbers all you want, but are you really trying to say that AMD and EPL’s MAP boost sensors are terribly off and optimistic? If that’s not what you’re saying, then I’m not sure why you would try to discount an EPL vs EPL comparison as far as spool is concerned between the two turbo setups, considering that comparing the same tuner etc, with only the turbos changed takes out the most variables possible for an accurate comparison. It’s not like EPL was sandbagging the RS6’s when they tuned them a couple of years ago (before the Tial 605’s were even a reality) so that RS6’s can look comparable to 605’s. I think it’s safe to assume that they tried their best on both setups, and that it is indeed realistic to compare real customer setups from the same company.
BTW, I’m not an EPL nutswinger, nor a Tial nutswinger, as I neither own nor necessarily plan to own anything from either company (well, I guess I’ve got tial wastegates ha). And my comparisons of the RS6’s are by no means only coming from EPL. I’ve been on the various Audi forums for years, and have been looking at the powerband/boost profiles/dynos/logs of RS6 cars from many tuners (VAST, ASP, EPL, etc), and analyzed all that I came across, not just EPL, pretty heavily before I decided to buy my set of RS6’s back like 4 years ago. For example, here’s some ASP dyno graphs with boost data, not from EPL, that I saved from back in the day and re-posted in this thread on Audizine:
[QUOTE=jibberjive;3639387][QUOTE=Don Supreme;3620147]Post some rs6 dyno charts in this thread.
[/quote]
Here’s some that I’ve found
This car is stock engine other than rods, ASP’s exhaust mani’s, DP’s, and FMIC
[QUOTE=lil’ is 300;2356442]Here are ASP’s results they posted…
451whp, 472wtq on 93 octane at 28.5 psi
http://www.autospeed.us/pics/RS6_93.jpg
502whp, 475wtq on VP109 at 28 psi
http://www.autospeed.us/pics/RS6_VP109.jpg
[/quote]
The second chart here is the same one posted above
[QUOTE=lil’ is 300;2370180]ASP just tuned another RS6 car. The difference between the last car and this one is this car has: Port and polish S4 heads to match RS4 intake ports, RS4 intake manifold, RS4 throttle body…all the RS4 inake stuff, RS4 intake cams, Rosten rods and ASP exhaust manifolds… full list here
93 octane - 465whp, 492wtq at 28psi. Full boost at 4100 rpm. The last RS6 car was making full boost at 4500 rpm (maybe all the RS4 stuff and headers made spool sooner?)
http://www.autospeed.us/pics/RS6-93Octane.jpg
Here is the other RS6 car posted before without RS4 parts and stock manifolds
93 octane - 451whp, 472wtq
http://www.autospeed.us/pics/RS6_93.jpg
I overlaid the two graphs so see the diff…If you compare the two graphs before peak torque and power is hit, the RS4 parts car is making a lot more torque and hp below the curve.
http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/6887/picture1nt0.png
[/quote]
And here’s a race gas dyno chart of the 2nd car with the RS4 intake stuff
http://www.audizine.com/gallery/data/500/RS6-109.jpg
Keep in mind these are just 2 RS6 setups from one tuner, and from one dyno. A different tuner, dyno, and conditions could vary these numbers and curve drastically, up, down, or side-to-side.
I’m sure there’s more RS6 turbo dyno charts out there, so feel free to post them if you have any!
[/quote]
From the data I’ve seen over the years, the RS6’s tend to spool ~15psi around 3500-3800RPM, which is very similar to what most Tial 605 setups spool like, and coincidentally similar to what my GT turbos spool like (15psi is the data point that I’ve been paying the most attention to as that is where my setup is currently limited to, and I wanted to compare my spool to the different setups. My turbos are a good bit smaller than GT28rs’, just in case you’re not familiar with my setup.) My conclusions are drawn from data over the years, not just a single EPL glory chart, and I am basing spool comparing psi to psi, not necessarily power. I wouldn’t be surprised if RS6’s felt a little snappier slightly down lower in the 3k RPM range than 605’s, but to say or imply that an average 605 setup spools like an average GT2871 setup is blatantly misleading.
I do, however, definitely defer to peoples’ real-world experience (like you apparently have and PureEvil with his personal setups, though his objectivity isn’t necessarily proven as it seems he has a bone to pick with Tial’s customer service), so I take what you guys say at face value and believe that the RS6 setup(s) you drove felt snappier than the 605 setup(s) you drove. And that wouldn’t surprise me much, as the vast majority of the objective data shows that they are relatively comparable turbos, with the RS6’s likely having a slight edge in spool and 605’s likely having the slight edge in the top end.
[quote=“PureEvil,post:48,topic:3572”]
Good data point to have. It seems like you may not have ever had a properly functioning set of turbos though, so I’m not sure if your comparison should be indicative of how a properly functioning set of turbos would be. I’m looking forward to you fleshing out the details of your original post though, as, like I often say, the more data the better for people considering different turbo setups.
Since I sold my last set of RS6’s I have had thoughts about snagging a cheap used set of RS6 turbos, modifying them myself for the 2.7t, and putting them on an allroad to daily drive. It is still a high possibility, as I really like their powerband for the stock motor and they seem like they daily-drive well.
EDIT: Just for full disclosure, I started typing my response before CallingUout edited his post, and when I was writing this post, the last sentence of his post said something ridiculous like “Plain pump gas only RS6 cars commonly make 13lbs before 3000 rpm & 20+lbs by 3700 rpms, the difference between the 2 is more like 1000+ rpms.” Though everything I said in this post still stands, I just wanted to clarify that he changed some of those figures to be slightly more realistic.
I don’t know that it is as simple as spool being what is holding the tials back. The dynos show that the tials make great power and the spool is solid
I think the turbos will prove to be fine once other tuners get their hands on them.
Fact of the matter is. Posting Autoscams dyno sheets is about as factual as asking the owner of the car what powe they want to make and then printing them out a sheet with that number on it.
jibberjive your a joke. Does your car even run? no… well maybe Ill challenge you to a race and then back out when you accept.
FACT is. All tial cars talk about is how fast they are after 60mph and ALL the semi impressive videos you see are of them above 60… THERE NOT IMPRESSIVE down low when you compair them to a REAL turbo. DYNOs PRELOAD the wheels and just end up helping make it look like a car spools better then it will on the street. Jibber take more time to educate yourself before you waste everyones time with your 8 paragraph posts of waste.
post a ligit shops dyno info
Post a good 1/4 mile time
Thats a good place to start.
how many more tial cars have to fail on the stteet before the pack of cluless dyno sheet holding holdouts get it… A dyno is pointless.
here you go. 640 on pump gas. and 146mph… the best 600+tial car went 128ish… so the tial cars are only off by 20mph from where they should be. you guys that have been scamemd into the tial waste land need to wake up. HOW MANY MORE GOOD B5 guys are going to get scammed and post threads like this before people just wake up…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXpYpfzkfQ0
TIAL is the PES of turbo chargers for the B5 S4.
Chris dude you spew a lot of BS
Jibber, the graphs clearly show the difference you posted and those charts are from like 4-5 years ago from ASP, other shops have tuned the RS6 stuff to spool even better.
It’s likely anything can be made to spool better. If you are all questioning epl then why not assume that your assessed quality of the turbos as hardware is based off a non optimized system?
My tial/hpa gt35 can spool by high 3000s but I prefer for it to spool around 4100-4300 for numerous reasons including component life.
I think to many parties from the side of this that are not on board with 605/770 setups at present are making blanket statements about a turbo when the turbo is just part of what needs to be a well matched and tuned system. Many cars out there just plain aren’t.
I have said this before trying to be as objective as possible, I have built, tuned, driven, cleaned up, fought with owners who owned incorrect setups I worked with in regards to all of the above, 605s feel like bw turbos of a similar output when setup and used similarly. They in my opinion are not really better or worse, just an alternative. I wish 605s were BB. 605 and 770 cars can move out just fine when being driven in a manner to do so. 0-60 potential is the same.
[quote=“ChrisK,post:51,topic:3572”]
I post MAP pressure sensor data for RS6 turbos for a non-EPL company because CallinUout said he won’t accept EPL MAP sensor data for some reason, and you come out of left field and start complaining about ASP’s dyno numbers lol. And did you really just post up a 9 sec Evo video to try to make a point about a B5 S4 
Nobody here was talking about dyno numbers until Saki asked for them, then the dyno numbers he asked for were objectively posted at his request. Then for some reason you decided to start harping on dyno numbers again. Newflash for you, there’s still no one to argue with in this thread about Tial dyno numbers. I don’t own tials, nor do I care about your opinion of their dyno numbers (and apparently neither do the 2 people in this thread that actually own Tials). My response to you was that your logic that a car with turbos the size of Tial 605’s (start spooling between 3-4k RPM) has to be speeding to use the turbos is retarded, as there’s two and a half gears below the speeding threshold. My car (similar spool to 605’s, though no I don’t have tials, in case you’re still confused) picks up from like 10MPH in first gear and won’t let up until 188MPH at the top of 6th if I choose to row through the gears. These aren’t huge turbos that fall out of the power band when shifting, so if you don’t have power when you want it, then you’re in the wrong gear.
The graphs that I posted show exactly what I said, RS6’s generally spool ~15psi around 3500-3800RPM, right around the same range as the majority of the Tial 605 data, with your average RS6 car spooling maybe a tad sooner than your average 605 car. I agree that that particular data is old, and I agree that spool characteristics can vary from tuner to tuner, but like I said, my conclusions weren’t based solely on those ASP dynos (nor solely on EPL dynos, nor solely on VAST dynos, nor solely on WMS dynos, nor solely on 034 dynos, nor solely on JHM logs… yada yada). Rather my conclusion on RS6 and 605 spool/powerbands is based on all of the info (dynos, street logs, videos, customer testimonals, etc) I have seen over the years as a whole. I posted the ASP MAP sensor info because for some reason you don’t accept EPL’s MAP sensor data and you acted like I could only post EPL data to corroborate what I am saying.
I’m just posting to give the forum some semblance of balance to your insinuation that your average 605 setup spools like your average GT2871 setup, and that an average RS6 setup spools like an average K04 setup. Those are both extreme, and the reality is that the 605’s and RS6’s powerband and spool is closer to each other than they they are to the either of those extremes (GT2871 and K04).
But but but… they can only be driven in 3rd gear from 5000RPM on up because they’re so big!
ok so prove its BS… show me a good consistant line of good running fast TIAL ANYTHIGN 1/4 performaince cars. when did you… of all people get soft and lay back and accept not saying your soft but your one of the raged tigers that used to stand up againsted this stuff All these lame ass logs and graphs along with wake ass dyno fail sheets… Im not calling Tial as a company bad. I love there parts but the TIal S4 turbos are not GREAT. tjhey have issues and these issues are large…
DUDE WE ALREADY DID THIS. REMEMBER THE HYBRID TURBOS WITH TEH K26 wheels…hype this hype that… This turbo joke has been goiong on for WAY too long… Now the tial turbos for the S4 are one more bag of fail. I can post 30 different cars with the same size motors that make less hp weight the same and make real power `500 and turn this Tial dabate into a dead issue.
Tial turbos have had issues from the start and come on man don’t act like you don’t know. First the waste gats were junk/ tjhey couldn’t hold any vboost… then they to try and make them look like a good turbo the wastegates were set on kill and people couldn’t turn down the boost… the first tials were not called 605s they were something else and then things had to chance due to a change in turbos.
The entire thing is a scam. Tial talks about a compressure that can flow more then a GT30 turbo but you neve see it cause no one is smart enough to know its beyond the compressure wheel.
you have people like jibber jive that has no idea what he is talking about and make a 50page esssy to make a two sentence thought. These guys don’t know or dont appear to know how to draw a line between to facts. Not that there are not several smart people and Im not saying jibber and others are nto smart.
but e85 is not typical pump gas and 93oct with stright meth with a 14jet isn’t pump gas either.
MAN to man show the the actual IMPRESSIVE RESULTS OF TIALS ON TEH STREET… Lets not forget this is a MELT down post about how UNHAPPY this guy is and how his turbo failed…
THIS DEBATE IS WON by the neigh sayers and will continue to be won due to the LACK of any REAL WORLD ROAD track proven data that shows actual performance. other wise the Tial turbos are just like a supra dyno sheet…worthless and only good to brag abot with people who don’t know better.
Yeah, I personally completely built an S4 from the ground up, inside of the engine out, including tuning the Bosch Motronic ME7 myself, with turbos similarly sized to what I’m talking about, yet you try to say that I have no idea what I’m talking about because it doesn’t agree with your biased agenda :
BTW, you’re starting to sound like FAW with blatantly contradicting yourself one sentence directly after another (like FAW saying ‘F you, your car’s slow,’ ‘but I’ve never called anyone out and don’t want any beef with anyone.’)
Lies, lies and lies. You have called me out more than once a d you don’t even have a performance car yet. Now that you’ve mentioned me, let me say this, you are a joke, until you can come up with some proof that your car is making some power, or a time slip. Everyone has a camera, or a cell phone that can record. Can you get inside of your white lemon and record a 1st through 3rd gear pull so we can see where your lemon makes boost, or is that too hard for you to accomplish?
[quote="_F.A.W,post:58,topic:3572"]
Is that so Mr FAW? You want proof or a time slip eh?
I agree with a lot of what Snowtrooper said, and he’s 100% right it’s all about being well balanced and that’s the best point because the Tial 605/770 stuff isn’t but the RS6 stuff is.
Guy’s the 2.7ltr is not much larger than many 4 bangers, keeping this in mind when choosing turbos may help you make a sound decision.
Changing the 605 to ball bearing won’t be the solution either as most ball bearing turbos help keep the turbos spooled up in between shifts, you might see 100-150rpm down low “maybe”, between shifts is the major advantaged.
Once these guys figure out there’s much more to the turbo than 48lb compressor wheels the better off everyone will be but that shit sales. This all sounds great billet this billet that bullshit but at the end of the day it’s mated to that motor, that manifold, that turbine housing and wheel which is far more important than that compressor wheel and not to mention the scroll design.
PJK04 has 22lb compressor, RS6 27lb wheel but there matched far better to the turbine side, also the scroll is better/more suitable “that’s why they work so well” there’s nothing special about them otherwise!
It’s like having the best marathon runner with great big lungs but his mouth is near closed with a plugged nose :P.
I really careless about spool, it’s meaningless really, as long as she makes power fast down low and she moves throughout the rpm range quickly that’s all that matters.
Jibber I modified my post because I viewed the same dyno graphs you did because I knew you would be linking them, those boost graphs are much slower than most today.
Friend of mine has both cars running today with matching hardware, RS6 car and 605 car and guess what car he can’t wait to sell. He built the 605 car first by the way and you know who the owner is and the he’ll he’s been through with that 605 car.
There’s 3.0ltr 605 guys who say there setup doesn’t make good low end power or ramp up extremely fast especially in 1st or 2nd gear. Most get there ass handed to them by PJK04 car’s running 30+% less boost until mid to top of 3rd gear. However It’s hard to beat the K04 car early on for other turbo setups out as well.
Buy Tial setup and get free broom for sweeping shit under the rug ;D