Piggy back goes oink oink...

Yes, yes I am only responding to blanket statements that a flash tune is better than the Chipwerke. I know a flash tune theoretically can be better. Of course they can also be worse. Only pointing out that either stance is pretty closed minded and any modder with 5 brain cells wouldnt even engage an old piggy back versus flash tune debate :slight_smile: Fair?

I would agree that B1 settings are probably the safest and offer the least amount of knock retard. I do think that is a pretty nifty side effect of this little piggy back which is being able to set it for 91 octane fuel, 93 octane, 94 octane, or even a splash of e85. If you dont like to fiddle though you could just set it to B1 and forget it. Too easy right.

Mike

There is no debate or theory to speak of. You can try to be funny if you want, but all the evidence and data says otherwise.

Like I said I’m not going to get into the theoretical of how flash tunes can be better. We all get the pros of flash tunes. We all get that flash tunes can grenade a motor too. Right?

I thought we were trying to talk about this piggy back and its safety and effectiveness.

It is what it is. Its a simple crude device that apparently has the luck of producing great power all the way under the curve while also able to be adjusted to produce some of the safest looking logs I have seen from our platform? I think you can agree there are several people running around with 8 degrees of knock retard on flash tunes and apparently it is safe enough to go tracking like that.

No, this thing is never going to be useful for people going stage 2 most likely. But for folks who want something very safe, cheap, and extremely effective that can be removed in 2 minutes and has no change to the ECU it fits perfectly. That’s all i’m looking for in my car.

Mike

Ahhh, pretty sure we’ve discussed all aspects of the CW and flashed tunes in both threads. You’ve had no problem discussing both many times. Is that not what your first post did? You can spin it any way you want for your own convenience, but you have brought it up as much as anyone else.

Speaking of safety specifically, the logs just posted by another user are the absolute worst I have seen in terms of timing. So, out of 5 logging scenarios, we are below 50% as far as how the timing looks. He is pulling up to 13 degrees on the B1 setting and 91 octane. That is absolutely nuts. Not sure what else there is to say.

I’ve seen 5-6 degrees of timing pull on a stock vehicle just as much as I have a tuned one. The general consensus is that something is the 2-3 range is fairly normal, something in the 5-6 range can happen in the right conditions, and maybe once in the blue moon you can see 7-8. It’s not any more or less common stock or tuned. It happens. I’ve now seen three logs of Chipwerkes “tuned” vehicles that are hitting 10-13 degrees, and that is not normal under any circumstances.

To clarify your anything but unbiased. Here.

Also if the car is getting inputs and improper information from what’s really going on and this box is a signal interceptor there’s a possibility of the car not having great results in each case. You can have your car in ideal conditions and get as your calling them safe results but your version of safe and others might differ. Still the point I’m making is that lying to the ECU about the actual data going to the ECU is actually removing the cars ability to he safe. The idea is to have the car get the appropriate data from all the sensors so that the ECU can adjust for a wide range of conditions.

This box is mimicking the results of the flash tune but to say it’s mimicking or able to also produce the safety isn’t IMHO correct. Saying the car doesn’t dump fuel any more like some other tunes. That fuel dumping is part of the cars need to save itself. It’s almost like your saying. Hey you know all the pesky things that the tunes do that rib power in order to keep the car safe. This box doesn’t do that. To me that’s not a good thing

I have a few questions.

  1. why do you think it is so great that your car is not showing ignition timing retardation? You understand that this is one way your car protects itself, right? If your piggyback is fooling the knock sensors, you’re in the same boat the revo guys you keep mocking were (desensitized knock sensing and safety)

  2. do you have any connection to this company or anyone at the company?

  3. Do you participate financially in the product sales in any way?

  4. Did you pay full price like everyone else, or did you get a free unit or a price break in exchange for promotion of the product (which you have now done on multiple forums in multiple threads, extolling only the virtues of the product on your one car, while ignoring the myriad of problems people are having on other cars, other than interjecting to ‘help’ the people and squash the bad press for Chip-Sometimes-Werks)

Excellent questions:

  1. It is great because that means my car is not detecting knock. None. This unit does not plug into the knock sensors. The full factory safeguards to detect knock are retained. You can be sure of that with a piggy back because you can physically see if it plugs into the knock sensors or not. With a flash you would have to guess if the factory safeguards are retained. Thats how people found out about Revo. It was impossible for them to make the timing they were making and show zero knock activity without having messed with them.

  2. No I have no connection with Chipwerke or anyone who works there.

  3. No I do not.

  4. I paid more than the audizine people paid. I paid the MSRP of $349 and after the people at audizine contacted the seller they negotiated a $50 discount for themselves.

Mike

First off, I do applaud you coming to this forum to discuss the CW. I doubt there will be any users here interested in trying this, so I think this kind of goes against the “post for profit” argument.

Regarding your points, I do not contest that you feel the device works well on your car. That is fine. So let’s let that die, you showed a good time at the 1/4 mile, so clearly it makes power.

The issue like Jran points out is you are convinced that it runs better “than some flashes I’ve seen”. Let’s forget about revo for the time being, they have updated the tune and we haven’t seen an engine go boom for a while. The log argument doesn’t hold much weight in my opinion. When I look for logs, I’m looking for signs of “bad things” going on, not verifying it functions correct. The logical leap needed to say “this works flawless in all conditions” needs to be backed up by TONS of miles (from DIFFERENT cars), logs, performance data etc. So the logs you’ve put together don’t tell you if the CW is “good”, only that it is “not bad” for YOUR car in the CURRENT conditions…hopefully that makes sense.

Now I’ve seen quite a few posts about strange behavior, both in terms of drivability concerns…and in terms of CEL’s/misfires etc. This is a red flag in my opinion. I’m not quite sure what are the necessary conditions for those failure modes, but I think it is a lot more complex than simply “go to B1 instead of C1”. I’m not sure how anyone can discount those posts. There are quite a few of them in there.

The other issue, that a friend who does turbocharging control mentioned, is that the wideband O2 sensor will only correct for AFR under steady-state load conditions. So if the ECM is requesting X NM of torque while currently providing Y NM of torque, then after about 1 sec you will hit the correct AFR after you transition to X. But the time leading up to it will not be correct. He said this would feel like surging or bucking. And this can happen both when you go WOT or 1/3 throttle or lift completely. The transient fueling strategy is all look up table stuff based on MAP and other signals.

Second, I’m not sure that logging AFR necessarily tells the whole story. I honestly haven’t followed the thread in close detail, so I can’t comment on exactly what you are logging. Only to say that the sensor readings recorded using VCDS may be filtered or not sampled fast enough to show the AFR issue.

Also, we aren’t clear about the measurements like EGT (which you claimed was good above), because that will typically be a look up table measurement based on IAT, AFR, MAP etc. So I wouldn’t trust signals that don’t have physical sensors.

So like I said from the beginning, it’s fine if you think this is great and that it makes power. But the minute you start making it seem better the flashes available (let’s restrict to the big proven options on this platform) based on some comparisons you’ve made over the last 2 weeks of data (with tons of issues reported) is when people will seriously question your ethics on the subject. Pretty much every owner here with a B8 who wants a tune will shell out the $$ for a proper flash. Hopefully APR’s new offerings will finally remove all the B8.5 issues that still might exist (since it is hypothesized that Audi changed the ECM strategy/sensor/hardware).

Thanks for the well thought out post and for welcoming me.

I agree with you and Jran in that respect that this may not be for everyone. Definitely. It works well for me. And as Jran has stated, it may work well for many and for some they won’t want to mess with it.

If any of you have seen my background you’ll know that I am a big fan of reflashes as well. I am a big fan of APR in particular although I dont discount any tuner until they prove they should be discounted. I’d actually like to see some more custom tuning options become available for our platform. On my track car I can tune it for each individual intake we may want to try (tuning specifically to resonance pulse changes from different intakes), tune for a head port and polish or change in cams, etc. I think that would take people like you guys to the next level. For me this is still my DD baby so i’m not there with this car yet.

Mike

So my next question is will you concede that there is something “more” going on here than simply what setting the CW is in? Why are some people having drivability concerns/terrible logs if the device is so simple?

You have to realize that a vast majority of the B8 audience on AZ knows dick about cars (older platforms have people who work on cars, but not brand new B8’s), but are clearly willing to pay money to go fast. This thing might as well be an app on their iphone. Which is why it’s kind of a dangerous game if people don’t understand what they are getting into.

And debating things on AZ is worthless…too many defensive arguments and accusations of people being “fanboys who are pissed their 2k tune is slower than 300 CW”. So I’m willing to debate the merits here, but I think you also have to consider some of the problems are more fundamental than just “change the CW setting”.

Take little offense to this, but I’ll be a lot more swayed by your impressions once the dust settles and you have some actual miles under your belt. Again, you’ve only had this thing for a couple weeks. I mostly care about honest drivability feedback.

Has anyone else there gone to the track?

Some of the issues remind me of my 1.8T days where people would modify their MAP sensor by adding capacitors to one of the signal wires and then slapped a manual boost controller on the car. This essentially made the ECU think you were still under the stock boost limits and would allow you to run boost nearly double what it should be without going into limp mode.

The car ran great at WOT, but drivability sucked ass. Part throttle was horrible and uncontrollable.

what did he run in the 1/4 mile?

I haven’t seen any slips or vids.

I think it’s really weird that he has no vested interest (he just claimed that above) yet he is turning a blind eye to the terrible experiences a number of people are having

further he keeps talking about his car not pulling timing, but won’t touch (with a ten foot pole) the fact that multiple cars are indeed seeing as much as 13 degrees of ignition timing retarded.

Anyone else find that really strange?

So far from what I can see, this works ‘perfectly’ on this guy’s car according to him, (even though his quarter mile times are in fact nothing to write home about), and poorly on everyone else’s…and while he is promoting the product at a prodigious pace, he is straight up ignoring the concerns raised.

Have I got that wrong?

12.66@109.5, I believe with a DA of something like 1500.

http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/400241-Official-1-4th-Quarter-Mile-Drag-Strip-Times?p=10642336&viewfull=1#post10642336

Not trying to put words in his mouth, but I believe it’s something like “you have a Pro or S and they are different cause it was for an A7 and change the settings to B1 and all should be fine, cause it’s fine on my car”. So in my opinion, it’s all based on some false assumption that engine tuning is as simple as faking the MAP. “Different ways to skin a cat” type argument.

Like I said from day 1, I believe he is one of those guys who gets very very very excited to be the “guy” to solve the major problems for the community. There is an incomprehensible amount of bitching in the B8 S4 section about tune prices, because everyone came from their STi/335i with a 700 cobb “custom” option. Like you’ve said before, people care more about a cheap tune than a good tune. There is no reason he would join here if there was financial stakes…cause no one here would run this CW thing lol

If it’s as simple as the graphs make it out to be, then you could probably build a small circuit with a few transistors to emulate the voltage map.

It’s really fucking funny that the “Pro” version somehow has a “better processor” than the cheap one. What the hell is the processor doing? Other piggybacks, I get it, they need to calculate fuel injector duty cycles or change the phasing on the cams…but wtf does this thing need a microcontroller for. Seriously, WTF?

He made 3 passes

2 of them were stock like 12.8 @ 108
1 of them was like a really really good stock time 12.69 @ 109

His DA was not excellent, but it was fine. 1500 means he’s down about 10-15 hp max. That means he might have run 12.55-12.60 @ 110.5 at best in 0 or sub zero DA

If we put him on this list, his one good pass would be tied for 2nd fastest stock B8 S4. His other two passes would be 3rd and 5th

And people bought this thing? And people are having problems with drivability and shitty reactions on their cars…and posting about them…and they’re still talking about this thing???

WTF has happened to the b8 community lolol. Twelve guys leave AZ to come to AR and the entire B8 S4 forum over there loses 60 IQ points.

http://i375.photobucket.com/albums/oo193/sakimano/untitled_zpsitepjkrd.jpg

Not a master electronic guy myself but I was thinking the same thing. Sound like a possible marketing thing.

The main thing people are shitting their pants over is TD1. That is 99% of why this is viable to them. bhvrdr also made a point that those passes were BETTER than APR stg 1 on his car. He didn’t provide DA, only said it was “70 degrees for CW” implying the conditions were horrible relative to standards set by the 1/4 board.

I have seen no other 1/4 mile passes in that thread…some guy dyno’d his car and had pretty good results (60 HP). But it was funny because some of the dyno pulls sucked, so it would have “I reset the ECM before this pull” or “forgot to reset ECM before, so that’s why it was worse than stock”.

Also, there was a GIGANTIC exodus of people from the B8 section, happened about 2-3 months ago I’d say. It’s pretty much all new guys now. Hate to say it, but once swank left, a lot of people seemed to fall off. Not many of them came here, just vanished into the interwebs lol