Yes, I voted 10k. I think the kit will be sold without CPS but note that it will be “highly recommended”. I would guess the majority of people who will be going Stage3 already have some sort of cooling.
I don’t think there is a chance they sell it without CPS, if they do you are t getting a full tune.
I think they have to offer it w/o CPS to certain customers who already have the CPS on their cars… I am assuming you mean for those that don’t? Maybe they will make it a requirement to own their CPS via looking up your name to verify the purchase in order for you to qualify buying it w/o the CPS, not sure…
Vey much not sure that the CPS would be required, in real terms.
Like I said, why would the heat soak from the 1740, even with greater flow, will be any greater than the 1320, when it’s operating in a different island, heck no, “continent” of compression efficiency? I mean i could see APR requiring it because it seems ‘obvious’, but I’d imagine the actual amount of difference in heat soak would be negligible.
Besides, when it comes down to it, I’ve seen continuous hotlapped 11.7s-11.8s in bears’s car (heck even did a couple of those myself) done with thick mud flowing through the intercoolers.
All the CPS does is remove heat soak quicker…it doesn’t intercool the charge any significant amount faster in itself.
J, Good points and I tend to agree… I really wonder if they will have us reuse the stock intercoolers that are in the manifold or sell new/larger ones with the new blower… To me that would help more with keeping the charge temps down than a larger heat exchanger… thoughts?
Yes prime I meant to those customers who don’t have it. I can’t see them allowing customers to run the charger to full stage 3 potential without it.
If you look at APRs first intercooler offerings on their 4.2 1320 kit, they were not really an effective looking setup (in my eyes, mind you that’s what I do 10-20 times a year, spec HXs). Unless its a denser and larger core (which probably wouldn’t fit anyway), I’d hope they would just save us the cost and use the originals.
That would save some cost… A nice chunk actually…
So J’s comment on the charge coolers got me thinking and this whole price debate…
So I went on APR’s site and looked at the kit for the RS… It’s $17,750 for the kit and the pump is $1,800(rebuild cheaper $1300) so a total of $19,050 - $19,550
Now for the S4 here is what I am thinking and these are just my thoughts and could be way off…
Will obviously need the blower, intake, manifold, TB, gaskets, plugs(I think will need a heat range or two colder) and odds and ends like hoses, clamps, etc.
Here is what I think we won’t need(or some of us anyway) to upgrade…
- CPS, again assuming you already have one - $2,000
- Tune, this assumes you are already tuned so we won’t need to pay $1,500 for the software(doubt most RS4 owners had a tune from APR prior to blower?)
- HPFP, I don’t think will need it but could be wrong so if we don’t that’s another $1,300 - $1,800
- Fuel rails and associated parts(guessing here) $800
- Coolers if J is right another(guessing here) $1,000
- Pulleys and such maybe $300
- Won’t need IAT sensor that the RS4 requires since we have them - $300
- Probably half of the misc hoses and stuff won’t be needed, maybe another $300, again just a rough but probably conservative estimate…
So all of that totals $7,500 - $8,000 brining our price purely on the math down to $11,550. I also firmly believe APR will be able to spread the manifold and other development costs over more units and thus cut the price 10-20% from the RS4, could be wishful thinking… So that would put the price at $9,240 - $10,395
Again, just some crazy thoughts from me and I’m in either way so just did this more for discussion…
There are some problems
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you need CPS, so that’s still $2000. Just because you already bought it doesn’t make it free. Notice we’re talking about ‘the kit’…not ‘the parts primetime needs’.
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you need a tune. They’re not going to price the kit -1500 because someone bought a tune years ago. The kit is the kit. You will have to pay twice for the tune as part of the kit price. Besides the tuning is all new and full redeveloped. It’s not like they’re loading APR stage 1 from 2011 on your car with the kit. It’s the APR stage 3 kit and is entirely remapped. There will be a cost, embedded within the kit, for tuning. They may give you a discount of $400 or 500 bucks for loyalty if you’re lucky. I don’t see them, in a million years, stripping the price down by $1500 because that’s how much APR B8 S4 tunes sold for 3 years ago. Don’t forget that only about 5 our of 10 tuned cars are APR tuned cars (that we knowof…in Europe it’s almost a totally different market with REVO and MRC doing loads of work that we don’t see here…
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You think that NA cars operate without IAT input? The RS4 has an IAT sensor already.
So let’s redo the math
RS4 kit = $19,275 ($17750+1300+225 fluids)
B8 S4 kit saves
fuelling you’re guessing $1300+800
intercooler (even though it’s an all new manifold) you’re assuming $1000
pulleys $300
misc 300
So you’re actually looking at saving $3700
That puts you at around $15,000 vs the RS4 kit. BUT you said you don’t need cooling…but you do need CPS. So now you’re at $17,000?
You can’t price ‘the kit’ based on what it will cost you personally primetime. i.e. if APR says you need the CPS, you can’t say ‘the kit’ costs X - $2000 because you already bought the CPS. Hell go buy a TVSr1740 and supply that…that will save you a few grand on the kit cost, but does that really mean ‘the kit’ costs X - a few grand?
So really the comparison should be between two completely stock cars getting their respective kit?
Yes, that’s why it’s a kit we’re talking about, not parts of a kit that a few cars will need, and other parts that a few others will need. It’s a kit. That’s why the poll question is:
How much will APR stage III+ (TVSr1740 kit) be for the B8 S4?
not
How much will APR stage III+ (TVSr1740 kit) be for the B8 S4 if you already have a bunch of the kit components?
We will ignore ‘recommended’ stuff like clutch or exhaust work, but reality is those can be included. I know on the RS4 kit it will destroy a stock clutch pretty comfortably, so in reality you need to factor that in if you’re buying. It’s not part of the kit though so again, we will ignore.
I think what APR is about to do is strip out some of the stuff that people may already have in order to make it appear cheaper.
i.e.
SC pulley - maybe the APR pulley from stage 2 will work?
CPS - they will make it a necessary add on that you can delete if you already have it
tuning loyalty discount - they may reduce the price by $500 or something if you’re already APR 1 or 2 tuned
They did this with the fluids and the fuel pump upgrades on the RS4 kit to keep the price looking lower. They don’t want to have a $19200 kit. $17,750 is much more palatable. It worked too…loads of people have been fololed and are saying the RS4 kit is $17,000.
When this kit comes out at $12,499 but you can drop that $2000 if you already have CPS and $500 for a tuning credit and $300 for pulley, and APR says ‘Introductory price of $9,699’, just watch how many people start saying 'you can go stage 3 for $9,000 and make a bazillion WHPs on race fuels yo!; or … “See…I TOLD YOU it would be under $10,000!”
All of this is irrelevant. The cost of going stage 3 will still include all of those things. If someone has pre-purchased them, good for them. Again it’s not ‘how much will primetime pay’…it’s ‘how much is the stage 3 kit?’
Saki, My post was meant for discussion you seem to have taken it a little to seriously… As for my thoughts, I think you missed the few times I mentioned the word “assuming you have”, I realize a 100% stock car will need more parts, IE some of the ones I won’t need and many others won’t need, but lets be real here for a minute how many B8 S4 guys will go from stock to stage III? Most that will buy the blower are stage II+ already… So, there is no way APR would say to a customer who has already bought a part that you need to buy it again as part of our “kit” thus why I broke those things out… They also won’t sell us parts we don’t need to make this work on our cars… I 100% agree a stock car will cost more to convert.
As for the tune, if you are already tuned I don’t think APR will add any additional costs but again I am speculating just as you are so I may be right or I maybe wrong? Only time will tell… I don’t think the kit is the kit as you say I think there will be multiple variations of the kit based on where your car is at and if those parts were purchased from APR… I bet if you have the cold front from AWE, APR won’t remove the CPS and nor should they, it’s akin to GIAC not selling APR customers the DSG tune IMO…
As for the IAT sensor please don’t put words in my mouth, I realize the RS4 has a sensor, but based on the “kit” for the RS4 you need a new IAT sensor since your going from NA to blown, we won’t need that… Here is the link to the product page where it mentions the need on the RS4… http://www.goapr.com/products/stage3plus_b7_rs4.html
As for your go buy the 1740 and do it yourself, the thought has crossed my mind as most of the other things are able to be sourced or I could have made at my brothers shop… Were not building a rocket ship here were upgrading a blower… Unfortunately, Eaton only sells to a select few and I could probably still get one but the tuning would be the biggest issue and I don’t want to use a custom Jfonz or the like tune… I would prefer to pay my 10K or so and have it sent to my house, install it, and enjoy it… Again, just my .02
not too seriously at all. I’m supporting my argument and deconstructing yours. That’s all. If I misinterpreted part of it sorry about that. It’s not to attack primetime. I’m just saying “I think this and here’s why”.
That’s allowed still, right?
Saki, Cool! Of course, I think that is why most of us are here discussing the cars we have passion for… In the end I don’t disagree with some of the costs you mention for stock cars and I understand trying to put a price on the kit… I guess my point is that there will be variations of the kit and for us stage II+ guys it will be cheaper than for a stock car, I know statin the obvious… At the end of the day the only cost I really care about(being selfish here for a minute) is the one I will pay…
I still don’t get hte IAT thing. Their site says the use the OEM IAT sensor. Am I missing something?
Do they force you to get a new MAF and airbox? Or do they just integrate it somewhere else and need a new sensor? If so it’s like $20, shouldn’t be hundreds.
Here is what it says… Sounds more like a relocation though… Given they mention OEM sensor I figured it would be a few hundred since anything OEM is priced through the roof…
The factory mass airflow sensor includes an intake air temperature (IAT) probe and is designed to provide the engine control unit (ECU) with air temperature information. Because the RS4 is converted from naturally aspirated to forced induction, the sensor must be relocated to ensure proper IAT measurement. The IAT sensor is absolutely critical for safe, reliable and powerful operation and as such, APR provides an OEM sensor and harness for placement just past the supercharger’s dual internal air-to-water radiators. The included harness allows for simple integration into the OEM wiring harness.
The sensor feeds correct IAT readings to the ECU, which provides closed loop control over various calibration decisions, such as desired ignition advance. This provides safe operation no matter what the condition. During a cold day, with lower supercharger coolant temperature, the ECU will safely increase engine output mainly through ignition. However, under hot conditions, such as a vehicle seeing plenty of track time, the ECU will compensate for these conditions, lowering output slightly to avoid dangerous premature detonation. These compensations result in only attempting to safely achieve the maximum amount of power capable during any given temperature related scenario.
Well whatever it costs, looks like Richib will be getting one before Prime . . .
[QUOTE=Arin@APR;9359504]We will be fully testing the DSG before release and the intent is to release the kit for the 6MT first. Under our belt is already the RS4/RS5 DSG stage 3 and our S6/S7 4.0t stage 2 (maybe even more power out of that one in the future too) ;-). Both put out far more torque already without issue, and just like all the other DSG units we’ve worked with for years, it’s not the ticking time bomb transmission some were scared into thinking it was.
[/quote]
http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthread.php/517989-Teaser-APR-3-0-TFSI-Stage-III-Supercharger-System?p=9359504&viewfull=1#post9359504
Those are weird references. The S4 doesn’t have the same transmission as any of the other cars he mentioned. Very odd.
It’s surprising that they will be releasing the 6MT kit first, given the conventional wisdom that that transmission is weaker than the DSG (with respect to handling increased power/torque). Has APR mentioned anything about a clutch upgrade for the 6MT kit? Can’t imagine many manual guys would want to slap on the new blower while still running on the stock clutch.