Progress for the B5 2.7T...5 year review

B5 S4/ RS4
#50

Hey guys. I wonder if the platform is tapped out. Could that be possible? What more can be done?

In my opinion the B5 S4 is still so popular (and has become an enthusiast car like the twin turbo Supra, Grand National, twin turbo 300ZX and others like it) because there aren’t many cars out there like it. If I want a twin turbo luxury sport sedan that’s going to surprise everyone with it’s performance capabilities - what are my options? Not so much the 335i (everybody knows that car is quick). The E55 AMG? Yeah, maybe - but they’re not cheap. I wanted an inexpensive looking car as a hobby/project. What other choice did I have other than the B5 S4? I don’t think any - which is probably why it’s still so popular. Anyone looking for a twin turbo car that’s got great potential but isn’t well known is probably going to strongly consider this car.

Anyway. I’d be really happy with 11.2 at 129 - especially with a conservative tune. I still have some more stuff to do for the top half of the engine but when all is said and done, I’d love to have a daily driver that can do 10.x second quarter miles. Maybe if I’m really, really lucky - my “car” (certainly not “me”) will find a way to break that JHM record 10.8. :stuck_out_tongue:

Patience? Jeez, I have none. It’s about to be nine months and one week since I first brought this car to Velocity Factor. Hopefully Jnaut heals up soon. I need him to get my tune on and run the car down the track. :stuck_out_tongue:

Speaking of Loba - I considered them as a possibility. I wonder how they compare to Tials.

#51

Their turbos are interesting but my real interest is their exhaust manifolds.

#52

Loba is the real deal. We have tuned a handful of them in Sweden, and they do not compare to Tial. The L0700 spools like a K04 (information passed along from Stertman Motorsport). I feel that one of the reasons that you don’t see them putting up the times we have here is because of the fueling. They are typically content to just do builds using pump gas, which is very limiting when you are using a turbo that flows that much air.

#53

Loba seems to always be bringing out new products for the B5 i just saw a thread with there CNC’d Rs4 intake manifolds…deff interesting and yes i guess i said too much when i said “dead” but Happy was deff spot on that a ceiling may have been hit with the B5 unless Jhm or Loba has some interesting stuff up there sleeves. What happened with RSWorx wagon? Saw the build thread all the money they were throwing into it then all the sudden its nowhere to been seen?

#54

Because of fueling? Can you explain what this means? Honest question.

Corbett on here, I think, posted something about the car being sold… I haven’t heard this anywhere else and if it’s true I’m completely baffled. It doesn’t make any sense but would love to know.

#55

Didn’t you know? Yeah those who predicted they would never run it and it was just a dyno contest were just Epl haters.

But then they never ran it.

And then they sold it.

#56

To continue down this road of timeslips, any advice, pointers, predictions for a first timer. Never been but looking to go soon enough.
Launch rpm, shift points, etc…

Car is stock motor with rs6r’s, jhm fueling/tune, awe smics, 2.5" turbo back true dual, crap cats, full jhm trio/cross link, 034 motorsports line solid mounts, vast stg3 rs4 clutch (iffy).

#57

Check the dragstrip tips thread… Lots of good info

As for launching the b5 call jhm. Simple as that.

#58

Ya. Already picked dans brain some. Said even if we don’t go to strip we could put it through the paces at their “proving ground”.

#59

A good start would be just to roll out on the first couple of runs. As for launch and shift points, talk to your tuner! We’re lucky in the Canadian b6/7 world as JHM told saki then Saki told us.

#60

Yea that sucks i saw that beauty of a car at H20 but the fact tat they wont know it wont be quick down the 1/4 mile just makes it a dyno queen which isnt very impressive

#61

[quote]Because of fueling? Can you explain what this means? Honest question.

Corbett on here, I think, posted something about the car being sold… I haven’t heard this anywhere else and if it’s true I’m completely baffled. It doesn’t make any sense but would love to know.
[/quote]
With a turbo that flows so much, you quickly approach the knock limits of pump gas. Over there, they usually only do builds utilizing pump gas, hence the limitation.

#62

I’d like to add my 2 cents to the discussion…

But first off, I’m and new to the VAG and B5 S4 communities. I have always had a thing for audis and especially the B5 S4. Recently I was fortunate enough to be able to purchase one. And while I’m not 18 my current income is nothing to brag about. So I wholeheartedly agree the argument that some people are making about the cars now being available to kids can cause an issue because of lower income and not wanting to spend money on good parts so a lot of the companies move away from the platform. This leave a big gap for a lot of people who want more but don’t have the means of DIYing it.

I went through this same thing about 10 years ago in the MR2 community. There was a big want for performance and a push for advancing the platform, but no companies would do anything about it. Also it was in roughly the same situation. Cost was down so it the cars were available to younger markets; and it was/is a platform that deals with the curse of a poor engine bay layout being mid mounted left little room for upgraded intercoolers, and other creative modification.

But what happened in the MR2 community was that a few DIYers steped up and got creative; Trunk mounted ICs, Homebrew turbo kits that turned into production units, Custom Intake manifolds, One of the best DIYers even made and IC that was cooled via the A/C.

So while the chassis is at a stagnant point in its life, I think it is in a decent spot for some of the DIYers out there to start thinking outside the box and really push what the platform can do. Because it seem that no one wants to be creative and try something new. Everyone only seems to want a cookie cutter solution to going fast, AKA Stage 3 stuff. But cookie cutter doesnt always work, and you may get a few cars that are just fast like the ones listed by Saki.

I think the availability of the STK parts that 034 is hopefully going to help with some people and getting new and fresh thinking into the community, or the project like BritishTurbo’s over on AZ. He really seem like he wants to push forward and advance the platform.

Or what about research and development into cams? I have seen in a few different platforms where there were no aftermarket cams available but a few members of the community went and sought out companies to grind them, then they were a huge hit, and the companies started carrying them as an on the shelf part. Cams could be a great step and fairly cost effective to really add a boost to the community.

And while I know it will never go away the He said She said BS of who better and who can and cant put up numbers is old. Every company has fan boys and will defend them to their last breath even with no proof. So the debate I see of EPL vs the world and how they dont have anything to back up their claims, well just stop listening to it then they will either go away or maybe finally provide proof. (And to those associated with EPL, dont mind me. I know nothing of your company, your tunes, the cars you build. I am not trying to deface you, your products, or your abilities. The example is just very prevalent so I used it.)

So I think there are some great ideas out there. I have plenty of my own, I just dont have the resources right now to make them a reality. And I’m sure there are other in the same boat as I am. So people need to get away from “cants” or “that will never work” and move towards giving people support to new ideas. And if those ideas fail then they fail, but if they are a success it may be the game changer for the platform.

And that’s my 2 cents…

-Matt

#63

All good input Matt. I think it makes a lot of sense.

When I first started watching the b5 world, the cars were still $20,000 and people were comfortable investing in them. Lots of people plunked down $8,000 to go stage 3.

Now it seems the builds are more about keeping the car alive, rather than pushing the envelope. Lots of stage 3 minus cars running around on stock downpipes and intercoolers, or with a K03 tune, or stock fuelling. Hardly a recipe for progress.

Still, it’s interesting to see the JHM car suddenly vault into the spotlight. Only thing is the real problem with the platform, reliability, is it’s biggest pain in the ass. The JHM car was at the strip last year (15 months ago now I think actually) and went 10.8 @ 130…with a malfunctioning throttle body. The car got fixed and then about 9 other things broke over the course of a year. Not the proverbial axles that everyone is terrified of, but just little annoyances, typical of an old German car.

2 weeks ago they hit the strip and the car had an EGT problem after the 1/8th. They did rip off some insane 1/8 mile passes though, trapping 106 or so (they trapped 103 when they went 10.8 last year).

#64

[quote]Only thing is the real problem with the platform, reliability, is it’s biggest pain in the ass.
[/quote]
You’re 100% right about this. I do love audi but just like every other German manufacture they over complicate simple systems. And that’s one reason why I’m in love with the single turbo setups. its make the puzzle that much smaller and simpler to allow for more.

[quote]When I first started watching the b5 world, the cars were still $20,000 and people were comfortable investing in them. Lots of people plunked down $8,000 to go stage 3.
[/quote]
I started watching the cars around the same time, maybe even before and I remember being just when the APR stage 3 came onto the market. I was awestruck by the kit and more so by the price. But now as I’ve grown its seems hard to justify the cost, the hardware really can’t be that expensive. And while I will probably stir something up with this comment, that where the Frankenturbos are great, you can now do a stage 3 care for $3500-4000. Go to the JFonz site and turbos, inlets, and fueling is like $3400. Granted I’m not sure of the quality or longevity of those turbos but its half the price for possibly a little bit more performance than what you got out of the APR stage 3 Kit. So its moves like that that are going to help stimulate growth in the platform.

[quote]Now it seems the builds are more about keeping the car alive, rather than pushing the envelope. Lots of stage 3 minus cars running around on stock downpipes and intercoolers, or with a K03 tune, or stock fuelling. Hardly a recipe for progress.
[/quote]
This is what needs to change. This is where, like I said earlier, the “cants and wonts” need to go away. People need to embrace new ideas even if 9 out of 10 will fail. That 1 that doesnt may be that game changer

#65

Just curious…what did the MR2 world rely on for proof of a concept working?

dynos?
quarter mile times and timed acceleration data?

#66

It was mainly dyno number. Breaking down the barriers that people say weren’t reachable with certain parts and such. It’s been a while since I was involved though so my memory is foggy.

Their performance at the strip always seemed lacking to me. A few cars seemed to fall into the same boat of lots of power but not propelling the cars down the quarter where similarly weighted and powered cars ended up. There was a black car that made ~700 whp I think that was just scratching the 9s. It was the first thing I thought of when I saw Guruman’s build and his quest for time.

But the community as a whole was pretty divided (not in a bad way) of how people used their cars. So it wasn’t always a huge power game as much as trying to reinvent the wheel game. Because auto-Xers wanted this and drag racers wanted that. I was more just reminded of the community because of its bought with a stagnant spot.

The only real upgrades when I first got into the cars were a Greddy TD06 kit and Greddy Side Mount IC. And that was what you did to make I think 350whp. But then others came along and made new turbo kits with more options, the 2.2 and 2.3 stroker motors came about and it just snowballed the community in development. The. V6 swaps into them, then bigger V6 swaps. Then forced induction on those V6s.

And so if some one or some company could just start that snowball rolling I think the B5 community has a lot of room to grow. That’s why it reminded me of the MR2 community so much.

So you can kind of argue progress vs creativity because some of it was side steps and not always forward. But it was still growth. And it’s because people got away from “can’t and won’t work” to “that sounds cool, now lets see you pull it off”

#67

The mr2 and the b5 owners are two differejt packs. The b5 tends fo be more engeneer type and the mr2 is more grass roots type. The engeneer types cant stand to be wrong so even when they are wrong no one ever gets the truth

Then you have the scam and rip off artists like jfonz and his china copy friends. They take tunes and parts akd copy them so the platform will adnvance then you have tial and there clan of supporters that are not getting results but comver it up in every fashion they can… its a lip stick on a pig…

Then you have tje jhm and 034 top shops with top performance. Both the cheep kids amd tial guys bash so they dont feel stuipd for tuere purschase and the cheep kids can keep living the lie that stolen tunes amd jardware advance anything… the cheep kids akd companys …if yiu can even call selling parts out of yur moms house a biz …selling china parts are the same people that have shown chna turbos blow akd are cheep

Its been said before. The only thing that has advanced are the insults and excuses or as i said orignally.The only things that are advanceing is the billsht that is being fed to these people…

The b5 is a collection of crazy ego mainacx with small to non actually looking to advancd anything but there e statous

#68

That’s the problem. People need to get off their high horses, and encourage new ideas instead of mocking them

#69

I regret getting into this whole B5 S4 thing. This is one dream I should not have followed. I should have got an old fox body Mustang 5.0 or Mark VII LSC and went nuts with that.