Which video are you referencing with the excuses?
The video of im guessing Dshots car against the porsche, noble, and Zr1.
description “AMD 770r 3 people, luggage and 10 gallons of meth in the trunk”
Granted the 3 people are there (including driver) but how much luggage was there? how much fuel was actually in the gas tank? if theres 3 people that sure would be alot of luggage how would you fit a drum of meth? Once again this is the only video of them against cars besides S4s.
ahh ok, I see why you could view it like that. I don’t think it was a set of excuses rather, it was “look what the car did with all of that weight”. Its pretty impressive, 2 extra guys is at least 350lbs a gallon of meth is almost 7lbs. That is a lot of weight! He beat the Porsche, pretty sure he didn’t race the noble there, and the Zr1 let out of it when he started to pace him and gain on him… There is more info on that ZR-1 it had a pulley, and tune. The guy sent him an email afterwards saying he knew the S4 would have passed him and he let out while ahead.
look, I know you guys think this is some huge conspiracy, it really isn’t I wish I could somehow show you right now. I know it will only be shown through 1/4mile or racing 91gl. I will race 91gl, I will try and have my brother take it to the 1/4mile.
Your right its alot of weight. maybe im knick picking. Like i said i just dont like that theres not alot of video proof. im sure there more than just S4s out there in washington ;D
Ive been racing and around racing a long time (or so it feels lol) whether it was track or street. im all about backing up myself and my team. i would abosulty love to see some AMD cars, burningcoals car, Dshots cars whoevers car ROMP on BT EVOs, STIs, and have them thinkin WTF?
Ill def be there for when you come up and run justin. Id love to check out your car and see what she can do.
racing 91 will prove you’re a good guy who enjoys racing…but it won’t prove much as his car only makes like 420 whp…and is a 11.9 at 116 car… He weighs same as a b5…but only makes like 370 wtq.
your dyno makes your car strong enough to run deep into the 11s at 125+…maybe pushing 130. That’s your ‘showed them’ thing. Of course if you mess with nitrous etc it will throw this out the window as you’ll cloud the amd/epl/tial result.
amd’s showed them thing is running dshot or burningholes deep into the 10s at 140+
p.s. Do we know what dshot ran at the strip with amd driving? In jan 2011 jason says they ran the car down the strip…but woukdnt say what it ran because it flopped. He said it basically sucked and they would try again. That’s when he got all 60-130 focused lol
its in the dipshot 700 whp club thread I linked earlier
Who would you have me race while I have the car in NYC to prove to you the car performs?
again, racing those guys will be fun, but will prove you’re faster or slower than their cars. Doesn’t tell us jackshit as they may be strong, weak, who knows. I think it’ll be cool to watch. NYCVR6’s car is damn strong. 91’s is solid. You should race them both as they’ve both shown they’re able to move reasonably well. But it won’t validate AMD or the Tial business model lol. Again, you have nothing to prove to any of us. They (AMD, EPL, Tials) do. At the dragstrip, with your power level, you should be able to put about 9-10 car lengths on 91GL…and you should thus be able to put about 6-8 cars on him in a 20-120mph pull.
If you want to help your friends at AMD and EPL, go to the dragstrip lol. It can’t be any clearer…can it? The dragstrip’s clocks and distances are standardized while whatever car you race is not.
I am sad to see there is so much dis-trust in this community. I already said I would take it to the 1/4, and I will make sure I or my brother does.
And I am sad to see there is so much conplacency and mediocrity in the b5 s4 section on audizine. I don’t trust any salespeople. Might mean I make some people sad (you’re not alone on that one) but it Stops me from getting ripped off!
Go run 11.5 at 130 and we’ll all be smiling and un-sad.
Seems the only cars that make the same or more wtq then whp are —&--- cars. Even though others have run the same setups & turbos “this out come never really happens.” For some reason this happened with their K04, RS6 & Tial turbos for yrs.
The info is only as good as the person entering the data ie setup the dyno. I’ve spent enough time on the dyno to no what happens when high wtq numbers are reported caugh caugh!!
Something people can’t lie about “how long it takes for certain weight car to go from point A to point B”
What matters more for acceleration – horsepower or torque?
My first approach was to ask those immediately around me and call some friends that were into cars and/or racing. The results were not satisfactory. I got a few decent responses, but nobody could explain the relationship to me in a way that I could understand.
All this did was confuse and intrigue me. One thing I did figure out is that none of the people arguing were using hard science as the foundation for their argument; they were invoking science, but were doing so very sloppily. Well, that wasn’t enough for me so I set out to find the real answers.
The Basics
So to start with I naturally consulted Google. Most of the top hits for “torque vs. horsepower” are excellent pieces; they break down the math in a very methodical way, so I won’t repeat that excellent work here. Instead I’ll just summarize the basics that are accepted as fact by everyone:
•Horsepower:
James Watt came up with the concept of horsepower – which is a measure of, interestingly enough, power. 1 HP is the equivalent of 33,000 ft/lbfs per minute. The reason for the complex unit is that we’re accounting for three things with this number: the amount of weight involved, the distance it’s being moved, and how long it takes to do it (that last one is important).
•Torque:
Torque is nothing more than a measurement of twisting, or rotational, force. The easiest way to think of this is to imagine a long shaft – like a car’s axle – and imagine it’s in a room suspended in mid air. Hanging on the bottom of one end is a rope with a weight attached – a very heavy weight.
Now imagine someone trying to, using their hands, twist the shaft so as to lift the weight. Think of them as essentially trying to act like a wench and reel it up. The amount of force they are able to generate to lift the weight in this manner is the torque that they’re able to produce. One unit for measurement of this is the foot-pound. A foot-pound is the rotational ‘force’ generated by hanging a one-pound weight at the end of a 1-foot wrench.
The Common Mistake
The mistake most people make when engaging in this debate is considering horsepower and torque independently. Almost everyone argues as if they are separate, unrelated values. They aren’t.
Horsepower = (Torque x RPMs) / 5252
This equation is the second most important thing on this page, and it’s the reason that anyone telling you that horsepower and torque should be considered equally and separately is significantly off-base. The fact of the matter is that horsepower is the product of torque and another value – RPMs (divided by 5252). It’s not unrelated, separate, or different.
In fact, there’s not a single machine in existence that measures a car’s horsepower. It’s a man-made number. When a car’s performance is tested, it’s torque is measured using a dynamometer. The measure of an engine’s performance is torque. Horsepower is an additional number that’s attained by multiplying the torque by the RPMs.
The Physics of Acceleration
So now for the most important thing on the page. What determines true acceleration for a vehicle isn’t really debatable – it’s force divided by mass. The formula for acceleration is seen below.
f = ma
Which means…
a = f/m
The confusion only comes in determining which force we’re actually talking about.
So we are solving for acceleration and we have a constant mass. We’ve already established that torque is the amount of rotational force being generated at the engine, but we aren’t concerned with the force at the engine. What we’re interested in is the force at the wheels. The force at the wheels is the f in f = ma (actually, it includes the radius of the wheel as well, but we’re simplifying).
But remember, the transmission ultimately gives the force to the wheels, not the engine.
And that’s the trick to this whole mess. Gearing magnifies torque. The torque at the wheels is the torque at the engine combined with the torque magnification given by the transmission through gearing. So the transmission only sees what’s coming off the engine, while the wheels see the resulting force combination of the engine plus the transmission.
That’s what horsepower represents. Horsepower is the combination of the benefits of the engine’s raw abilities combined with RPMs. And RPMs are what allow us to use gearing effectively, which gives us more torque at the wheels.
Conclusion
So yes, the answer to the question is torque, but torque at the wheels, not at the engine. And since we’re talking about torque at the wheels and not at the engine, the actual complete answer is horsepower because horsepower encompasses not only the engines torque but the total torque that gets put to the ground to accelerate the vehicle.
•Racecars have high horsepower due to high RPMs, not due to high torque (see gearing).
•“Below 5252 RPMs any engine’s torque will always be higher than its horsepower, and above 5252 RPMs any engine’s horsepower will always be higher than its torque. At 5252 RPMs the horsepower and torque will be exactly the same.” – revsearch.com
•"It is better to make torque at high rpm than at low rpm, because you can take advantage of gearing.
Very informative. I will have to do some independent reading on that. Though I can’t think of where I saw it, but I could swear I’ve seen some N20 cars make more tq than HP at 5252… A search for another day.
When you do some pulls with NYCVR6 ill see if i can get some strong S4s and other makes come out. I got a friend wit han EVO pushin just under 550whp on pump who would be glad to play. I know there a Jfonz 770 car in boston. Maybe hell take the ride down.
Sure if you hit the nitrous button @ 5300rpms.
Here’s the point, only a select few shops over the course of yrs always seems to have special dyno outcomes on whatever turbochargers they’re selling @ the time. Meaning 20+% more tq & hp over the rest of the S4 community with the same setups. We’ve all witness these crazy claims for yrs & to date theres still not 1 once of proof anywhere that any of these cars actually can live up to or even remotely close to there Special dyno runs :o
Here’s the conditions of what real world dyno # claims providing the info was input correctly would look like.
First, you would run the car in 4th gear not 3rd.
second, you would run the car 3 times with some moderate cool down in between & not just 1 money run for marketing.
three, you would take the average over the 3 runs and thats what the car makes…
Its rare but possible. Fact of the matter is they will always cross at the same point. As hp i sa calculation so you will never see anything different as its a calculation.
Tweetss4estate I have to say I really am gald to see your chalenging the points that are being made. We all owe you some appreciation. In the end the end goal is to make sure all the discussions are had.
I havent seen anything that says the Tial turbos are a good turbo for everyday use. every time we hear anything about the Tial turbos there is always an excuse for why they didn’t do better. None of wich can anyone validate. At some point everyone says ok no more excuses these things just suck. People have gotten to that point because the Tial turbos have been billed up as something there not.
from what Ive seen the tial turbos have been tested on customer cars for the past few years. Testing because no one knew how they were really going to work. Thus the changes.
I agree with you the concept is great the results are great IF YOU ACCEPT THAT THESE TURBOS are not low power low speed turbos. If you ask me. jason has no clue what he is talking about (EVER) and he isn’t smart enough to learn and actually take in information. He spends more time bashing questions and people then learning from the facts he tryes to cover up the facts.
to me they look like a dyno queen supra turbo. in there own right thats not really a bad thing and thats what the results keep showing. I think the issues with miss trust stem from AMD having zero credibly. They have been caught several times either being a poor sport or just getting caught lying or cheating the system.
Do the Tial turbos suck… Not really the guy who keeps pimping them and bashing people for talking openly about them does. Its the tial turbos association to a dishonest individual that cause these issues.
Ill be honest with you. If people that made this mess for Tial and have ruined the Tial name just said Tial turbos don’t hit as hard down low as a Rs6 or ko4 and due to there design they take a few more RPM and PSI to really shine. then To say that the power curve of the Tial turbos isn’t going to make for a super stellar 1/4 mile pass due to there make up. but they run like a bat out of hell up top and are a great highway killer.
If they said that. They would have shown that they are in touch with reality and actually said facts that back the actual results. But no… not the flip flop flop. He would rather attack then use common sense.
So if you ask me. Tials are great if you know what there great at. The biggest issues with the Tial turbos isn’t the turbos its the guy who seem to try and represent them…
I would love to know how many people agree with me.
I agree with 99% of what you said but the 770 turbos & other GT turbos perform plenty well to get the car moving on the street & @ the track, those cars are making more power @ 4k rpms then K04 & RS6 cars if you go by their dyno charts. Plus no one races below 4k anyway. These words “tial or gt aren’t good @ the track” is pour crazy! In my opinion 770 for the money is the worst possible investment you could make dollar for dollar, part for part & overall power.
Good to know. I only know so much and most of this was from the data I gathered. I would rather get some GT turbos before I go 770. I would rather have some GT25’s (I know people will say they are too small) on a log style or header style mani then 770’s
I don’t own a B5 Im not impressed with B5s anymore. While Im not looking to race anyone. I have raced several B5 cars and I HAVE NEVER EVEN came close to loosing when I turn on the big blue bottle. Still I think I like most educated guys know the weak spot on the B5’s so its kinda like shooting a fish in a barrel.
All in all my B6 S4 is really unstoppable. Ill I have to do is hit a switch and then a button and I just added 170wtq in less then .2 of a second. Thats dramatically faster then ANY TURBO.
Ive been in a Tial 6 car and really felt unimpressed. Out of fairness maybe I was expecting more.
I revised my post lol & people that say the GT25 turbos are to small they really have no clue. I’ve probably been in or driven more setups than most in the world.
Been in both 605 & 770 cars, GT2871, GT2876, drove RS4, RS4 hybrid, RS6, RS6 hybrid, GT2560, GT2860 & GT2868 cars. Overall best performer all around hands down was the GT2560 “AKA GT28R” car, it wasn’t the best in just 1 area but did everything extremely well in all area’s.
I was in countvons car and I know what turbos he had on it when it went 134 on a soft launch. That car was violent. So Im a fan of the 25s for the 2.7. For the 1.8 I like the 28
Car could of went 140mph when finished!
I would like to clear some things up.
AMD does not recommend stock IM over bigger, more efficient IM. That is false.
AMD has not finished their shop car due to overwelming backlog of cars currently 1.5 years out on new builds
AMD builds reliable street cars for customers who want to drive their car daily.
AMD is a small shop in washington that pretty much supports the local community. And is building everything from Toyota’s , EVO, STi, R8’s, etc.
AMD is not pushing customers to go out and run 1/4.
AMD is not selling products, on a web page or on AZ period.
AMD has no political reason to pump one turbo over another, cars come in, some make power on their dyno others don’t. The fact that no TiAL B5 car has done really well in the 1/4 is not their concern, the overall powerband is much better then that of any other turbo they have had.
MY car; makes more tq and power at all RPMS compared to any other turbo combination, RS4, RS6, etc which is why I chose TiAL for my car.
My car made 600WHP in cold weather then I went to the track that summer, my very first run was 12.2 @ 128MPH without a launch and no flat shifting, I was actually really nervous about all the 1/4 BS.
This year I plan on practicing the 1/4 and should improve my times.
There are several TiAL cars that will be hitting the track this year, they are all new drivers to 1/4 but with some practice I am sure well see the times improve.
I am not some divorced loser who knows nothing about cars; I modded and built my first stage 3 in my friends garage in 2003, probably before anyone on this site ever owned a B5.
My 60-130 is posted an verified on 6 speed online, there are several videos none released, and in the next 3 weeks I will be getting a MUCH better video of my 60-130 runs, full RPM/MPH, car and road and setup. In addition to FATS.
I will also be video taping my 1/4 runs.
There is no lieing or deceaving or fooling from AMD, all they do is build a car and the customer does the rest, if they somehow get all their customers to fool everybody then so be it. But when my car runs out and pulls a 2.0 FATS and a 5.7 60-130 using my own computer and laptop, I am generally satifified with the dyno numbers they are pulling.
This year will or should be a good year to put to rest all the BS speculation.
Cool forum here, and there is a lot of good information from racers.